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The Better Man Discussion
Hey kids, welcome back! After last week's repeat it's time to start up the new episodes again, though only for two weeks. Tonight we'll be discussion The Better Man (feel free to vote on the episode there) which promises the triumphant return of the Order of the Triad. As always, the comments will have spoilers, so keep out if you're not into that.
Update (12/7 at 3:40pm) - The episode is up on AS Video now for all you without cable TV (or who may have missed the last seven minutes).
Update (12/7 at 3:40pm) - The episode is up on AS Video now for all you without cable TV (or who may have missed the last seven minutes).
- by RetroWarbird
- (unregistered id: F1C230023C)
Excellent!
They promised to address Dean & Triana this season, and this was pretty solid. I didn't expect the whole Orpheus pow-wow with his ex-wife's/former student jerk of another man guy to show up, looking like Solomon Kane and killing the Triad's villain, but it was pretty cool.
The Master as Orpheus's ex-wife was just ridiculously funny. The gags about Dean Venture's re-cloned genetic drift were spot on.
They promised to address Dean & Triana this season, and this was pretty solid. I didn't expect the whole Orpheus pow-wow with his ex-wife's/former student jerk of another man guy to show up, looking like Solomon Kane and killing the Triad's villain, but it was pretty cool.
The Master as Orpheus's ex-wife was just ridiculously funny. The gags about Dean Venture's re-cloned genetic drift were spot on.
- by Dylan
- (unregistered id: 22F73B43C6)
- by Doctor X
- (unregistered id: 5FDDC40EDA)
I think in one of the taped conversation--one of the cons--they both describe Triana as "that cool girl" you all wanted to date but had no chance. They freely intended her not to have a relationship with Dean.
I liked the fact that it was Dean who realizes he has been chasing an ideal all of the time. Who knows, maybe if they meet in 10-20 years they can have a healthy relationship which is not what they were going to have.
Enjoyable show all around!
I liked the fact that it was Dean who realizes he has been chasing an ideal all of the time. Who knows, maybe if they meet in 10-20 years they can have a healthy relationship which is not what they were going to have.
Enjoyable show all around!
- by Greg
- (unregistered id: 35F2756E3B)
It's not going to happen. Triana may be free of giant failure so far, but Dean is in it up to his neck. What I predict is she's going to become a sorceress and shack up with a great necromancer, then come visit Dean on the failure compound and break his heart all over again. That's what VB is ABOUT.
- by Hayes
- (unregistered id: CE43502AC5)
- by lanquin
- (unregistered id: 57B46E6506)
So the Master appearing in Orpheus' ex-wife's form finally happened. I think in a commentary they originally wanted his first (or second?) appearance to be Dr O's ex-wife being nailed by her current husband while they insult his inadequacies.
Also as much of a jerk the Master was, he is putting Traiana on the right track. Great episode overall, I was glad to see some more Triad.
Also as much of a jerk the Master was, he is putting Traiana on the right track. Great episode overall, I was glad to see some more Triad.
- by Roscoe
- (unregistered id: 8A4AAE406A)
I have to say, I laughed so hard when Doc and Jackson told about their ex-wife scene in the commentary. I really wanted to see that scene, it sounded hillarious and SO BRUTAL!
I think Te master's advise was great. I didn't think he was being a jerk; just blunt, and it's just what Triana needed to hear.
I think Te master's advise was great. I didn't think he was being a jerk; just blunt, and it's just what Triana needed to hear.
- by mogo
- (unregistered id: 2F197375CB)
This could very well be one of the best episodes ever. A master-piece that gave fans what they want without losing hiliarity. It also brought plotlines that had been around since season's 1 and two to a close and showed the master was more than we thought. He wasn't just some ominpotent guy who taught truth to orpheous and riddle, he's also a wiseman, free from human emotion. As big a fan of the dean/triana relationship as anyone, He had a good point:their future was doomed, as was dean. And that orpheous was trying to protect her. But that wasn't the only charicter growth this episode. Jefferson finally found a power after 3 seasons of being apperently powerless, saving his comerades and phantom rider from certain peril. Orpheous finally both got over his wife and actually befreinded the other man. Orpheous also sent his beloved "pumpkin" off instead of mindwiping her for like the tenth time. As for the boys themselves, Hank shows he's a normal teen now more than ever, trying to teach dean how to talk to girls in his own dumbass way. Dean eventually finds someone whos name I can't remember and who know where it wil go. And on one last touching note the triana and dean goodbye was sweet, and she gave him exactly what he had wanted and needed. in the end this episode was as hilarious as it was insiteful. oh and by the bye-beye
hank:did you actually just give good advice?
dean:better check the temprature in hell.
dermott:go blow yourselves
hank:did you actually just give good advice?
dean:better check the temprature in hell.
dermott:go blow yourselves
- by The Mysterious 'H'
- (unregistered id: 66C758498E)
I don't know. This is a very different episode from the rest of the season. I'm reminded of Dr. Quymn, Medicine Woman (the episode more than the character). It's probably for the best that Dean and Triana don't get together. That sort of thing has ruined many a show before. Triana as a witch sounds much more promising anyway. Also, I'm amazed that Dermott gave such good advice.
As for the Orpheus/Triad plot, it was ok but I feel Orpheus shifted gears with his former student too quickly. Also, the conversation in Hell was very confusing to me. I'll have to rewatch it. It's a shame Torrid's dead (at least they said he was). He got almost no play but I thought he was solid. Oh well, Triad can always get a new arch if they want.
Oh, and one more thing- Orpheus's wife is probably the hottest animated woman ever. I'd love another episode with her, even if it's the Master in disguise.
As for the Orpheus/Triad plot, it was ok but I feel Orpheus shifted gears with his former student too quickly. Also, the conversation in Hell was very confusing to me. I'll have to rewatch it. It's a shame Torrid's dead (at least they said he was). He got almost no play but I thought he was solid. Oh well, Triad can always get a new arch if they want.
Oh, and one more thing- Orpheus's wife is probably the hottest animated woman ever. I'd love another episode with her, even if it's the Master in disguise.
- by Johnny Israel
- (unregistered id: B6FA8C095B)
Maybe I need to go back and re-watch, but Torrid came back and caused the state Outrider was in at the end of the episode. He kind of ran off after his attack on Outrider. He isn't dead. The reference to him being dead was due to his getting thrown into hell for opening the portal by Cthulu. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but......dude aint dead.
- by Witchy Bee
- (unregistered id: 2807E948C2)
I agree with you, Mysterious 'H', about the Orpheus switching gears with Outrider too quickly. I think there could have been some room for some hilariously awkward conversation there. But I guess we just have to assume that it's been a long time and he doesn't want to hold a grudge against him. Hard to believe, but oh well.
- by Mike
- (unregistered id: D548A83739)
- by Witchy Bee
- (unregistered id: 2807E948C2)
It's possible...
Ah, questions, questions, so many questions! What are we to do?
I wonder if they would just remove Hatred so quietly like that, I guess than it would be fitting with his entrance. After all, he did kind of just fall into the role out of nowhere, and he never was that good at it either. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I suppose we'll just have to wait for next week.
Ah, questions, questions, so many questions! What are we to do?
I wonder if they would just remove Hatred so quietly like that, I guess than it would be fitting with his entrance. After all, he did kind of just fall into the role out of nowhere, and he never was that good at it either. But I'm getting ahead of myself. I suppose we'll just have to wait for next week.
- by Kub
- (unregistered id: 6B0AB7FFE0)
ya, I highly doubt the guy is gone. The OSI requires a bodyguard for the Venture family. If Hatred is gone then they have to have someone else in there, and if thats the case then they didnt make a big deal out of it. But people are absent from episodes all the time. Hell, even rusty was barely in this one.
- by GersonK
- (unregistered id: 730E6DAFE5)
- by GersonK
- (unregistered id: 15F14550F8)
Try telling that to Dr. Dugong. Only you can't. Because he's dead. BEcause even though he had a Guild assigned arch enemy, he had no OSI bodyguard (or a really lousy one). The Order of the Triad's gotten no OSI assistance with their GCI arch either. And despite Dr. Quym being in the Guild's facebook, her bodyguard didn't seem to treat Brock as a coworker.
The OSI's official stance seems to be that they're not fighting the Guild. Cardholder & Doe were pretty cagey about why they showed up to help JJ with the Monarch.
If Dr. Dugong
The OSI's official stance seems to be that they're not fighting the Guild. Cardholder & Doe were pretty cagey about why they showed up to help JJ with the Monarch.
If Dr. Dugong
- by Creepy Crooner
- (unregistered id: C0BBF56792)
I kind of agree. I was thinking, back in the Revenge Society, that Operation Rusty's Blanket is no longer actually needed. It was implied that the Venture bodyguards (throughout history) are really just there as a fail-safe against the ORB ever being used. Now that the ORB is out of the picture (unless someone rebuilds it, I guess) the bodyguard seems extranious.
Of course, this is all just speculation.
Of course, this is all just speculation.
- by henchman 11
- (unregistered id: 5E69D79D8F)
Operation Rusty's Blanket was an OSI operation.
The ORB was destroyed by and only in the presence of the Guild of Calamitous Intent.
One could speculate that OSI has no idea it's gone.
I could see Rusty not telling them. Then he doesn't have to deal with Hank and Dean so much.
Also, was Rusty ever even aware of Op Rusty's Blank? I don't think so. So he wouldn't tell OSI. OSI would have to find out for itself. From it's inside man the bodyguard, and I don't think Brock or Sgt. Hatred would tell them because Brock hates OSI and Hatred doesn't have anywhere else to go.
The ORB was destroyed by and only in the presence of the Guild of Calamitous Intent.
One could speculate that OSI has no idea it's gone.
I could see Rusty not telling them. Then he doesn't have to deal with Hank and Dean so much.
Also, was Rusty ever even aware of Op Rusty's Blank? I don't think so. So he wouldn't tell OSI. OSI would have to find out for itself. From it's inside man the bodyguard, and I don't think Brock or Sgt. Hatred would tell them because Brock hates OSI and Hatred doesn't have anywhere else to go.
- by Jory
- (unregistered id: 253E4B0099)
Huh. I barely thought about the fact that he was missing...
EXCEPT for a shot in the mall when Dean was about to approach the blonde-haired girl, I thought I saw him stalking behind some trees. I guess it wasn't him.
Anyway, I hope him getting darted last episode wasn't actually his final appearance or something, that would blow.
EXCEPT for a shot in the mall when Dean was about to approach the blonde-haired girl, I thought I saw him stalking behind some trees. I guess it wasn't him.
Anyway, I hope him getting darted last episode wasn't actually his final appearance or something, that would blow.
- by Mike
- (unregistered id: D548A83739)
- by JOK
- (unregistered id: 49D1029675)
It's a toss up. It might mean something - it might not. On one hand, Hatred didn't really have much to do with this plot since it was centered around Dean and Triana and has been going on since the beginning of the show whereas he's relatively new. (But it would have been funny to see him giving Dean relationship advice.) Even Doc had a very little role to play, seeing as he was "resting his eyes" for most of the episode. Overall, it wasn't an episode about the adults (excluding the Triad).
However, Hank and Dean were talking about their news sedentary life. The last time we saw Hatred his duties as bodyguard were being fulfilled by him taking Hank and Dean to the movies. Maybe him being gone this episode is showing that he's becoming obsolete with the Ventures' transition into normalcy. But maybe Brock things wills start to flare up again next week when Brock comes back and we'll get a showdown between them or something.
However, Hank and Dean were talking about their news sedentary life. The last time we saw Hatred his duties as bodyguard were being fulfilled by him taking Hank and Dean to the movies. Maybe him being gone this episode is showing that he's becoming obsolete with the Ventures' transition into normalcy. But maybe Brock things wills start to flare up again next week when Brock comes back and we'll get a showdown between them or something.
- by David
- (unregistered id: C04B754F7E)
- by Mike
- (unregistered id: 1810A2A1DF)
Yeah, I was watching the time when I was watching it and the episode didn't actually start until around 7 minutes after 9 and was over well after 9:30pm (I'm on the west coast but I watch it on Cartoon Network HD which is on east coast time). I'd have been pretty annoyed if I was watching it on my DVR like I often do.
- by Chris98vf
- (unregistered id: AA747E76A5)
I was watching live and would have been pissed. Luckily I decided to record Metalocolypse on the living room receiver for some reason even though I've never watched it. I was going to check it out but now that the ending is cut I won't bother.
Also, I have the iTunes season pass so I can watch it at work on the iPhone so I'm covered there :)
Also, I have the iTunes season pass so I can watch it at work on the iPhone so I'm covered there :)
- by Mr.X
- (unregistered id: 8B84F8023D)
That was sweet. Really gave me a heartwarming feeling, which is rare for this show since its based on failure, lol.
Um, yeah, i totally missed Hatred, but I think it was best he didn't join in, just because there were so many different arcs in this episode, his would have just been one too many.
And koodos to the Triad, they always bring hilarity to their episodes, too bad they only got one appearance this season.
Um, yeah, i totally missed Hatred, but I think it was best he didn't join in, just because there were so many different arcs in this episode, his would have just been one too many.
And koodos to the Triad, they always bring hilarity to their episodes, too bad they only got one appearance this season.
- by NOROCK
- (unregistered id: 567DC2C8E0)
- by Mike
- (unregistered id: 1810A2A1DF)
- by Mike
- (unregistered id: 1810A2A1DF)
Triana was interesting because she was basically the lone 'normal' person in the show. In spite of having a necromancer for a father and living on a huge super science compound she was somehow able to see how ridiculous everything was. She didn't want to go on adventures or do magic or anything like that, she was just a teenage girl who was somehow immune to being sucked into having a ridiculous life.
I dunno, they kind of took that away from her in this episode, which I'm not really against either, but she was mainly interesting as a way of pointing out how insane everything was but really the show does a pretty good job of reminding us about that now without the need for a character that specifically does it.
On the plus side maybe people will stop requesting a Kim/Dr. Girlfriend spinoff now :(
I dunno, they kind of took that away from her in this episode, which I'm not really against either, but she was mainly interesting as a way of pointing out how insane everything was but really the show does a pretty good job of reminding us about that now without the need for a character that specifically does it.
On the plus side maybe people will stop requesting a Kim/Dr. Girlfriend spinoff now :(
- by Creepy Crooner
- (unregistered id: C0BBF56792)
Over the course of the series Triana only shows up in a handful of episodes. She is obviously hot but beyond that, her absence won't be missed much. Even Dr. Orpheus only makes occasional appearances throughout the series when you really get down to it. I did love the "old school death rock" line and the reference to the Bat Cave.
- by Creepy Crooner
- (unregistered id: C0BBF56792)
oh, and I also wanted to say that clearly the Dean/Triana relationship was doomed to fail (that's why it was funny) and it was really only the fanfic crowd that really wanted them to get together. I was surprised how gently they actually wrapped up that story (with both Dean and Triana realizing the obvious) and I am even more surprised that all the fans (presumably even the aforementioned fanfic crowd) seem to be totally okay with it! I'm proud of you guys! =)
- by InActionMan
- (unregistered id: 952E7341C6)
Just a little trivia for the episode for the episode capsule. All of Hank's advice on how to talk to girls at the Mall comes verbatim from the book on picking up girls "The Game" and from the VH1 TV show "The Pick-Up Artist" in which the world's supposedly best Pick up artist "Mystery" tries to teach nerds how to pick-up girls.
- by Dylan
- (unregistered id: 22F73B43C6)
Speaking of Mystery, I highly recommend this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgsHV9FEJdU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgsHV9FEJdU
- by vein train
- (unregistered id: CDA133A032)
a great read on demon fiction:
http://rigint.blogspot.com/
http://rigint.blogspot.com/
- by Roscoe
- (unregistered id: 8A4AAE406A)
Holly CRAP! Favorite episode of the season so far! It had all the old familiar faces that we haven't seen/hardly seen: Triad, triana, dermott, the Master, billy, and best of all, No Hatered!
I am a little disapointed that the first time we get to see triana all season is when she's leaving;
But I can't believe we saw what Triana's mom looks like; and that we got to see the "Younger Necromancer" who stole her away from Orpheus.
How Boss was Hank, acting all arrogant and douch-like like Dermott?
I wonder what's going to happen with Triana. You know, if she's going to just be gone, or come back more bad-ass than ever. I'm kind of bummed out that she's going to follow her dad into a profession in the Supernatural. I really liked her being the ground wire in the whole dynamic of Venture. The way she recognized how rediculious all the events unfolding around her were. Now she seems to be embracing it.
Personally, I think that following with the theme of the show, Triana comes back a failure and goes to art school.
Anyway, I really friggin' love this episode.
It's just nice to have my passion for Venture re-ignited. I was really feeling down about this entire season.
I am a little disapointed that the first time we get to see triana all season is when she's leaving;
But I can't believe we saw what Triana's mom looks like; and that we got to see the "Younger Necromancer" who stole her away from Orpheus.
How Boss was Hank, acting all arrogant and douch-like like Dermott?
I wonder what's going to happen with Triana. You know, if she's going to just be gone, or come back more bad-ass than ever. I'm kind of bummed out that she's going to follow her dad into a profession in the Supernatural. I really liked her being the ground wire in the whole dynamic of Venture. The way she recognized how rediculious all the events unfolding around her were. Now she seems to be embracing it.
Personally, I think that following with the theme of the show, Triana comes back a failure and goes to art school.
Anyway, I really friggin' love this episode.
It's just nice to have my passion for Venture re-ignited. I was really feeling down about this entire season.
- by Heat Death
- (unregistered id: 3DEB798AB5)
I think Triana's unexpected launch into the world of sorcery is a pretty good parallel to what's happening with the Venture Brothers this season. Orpheus wanted her to be a normal art-school-going girl, and enforced his wishes to have her live a "normal" life by repeatedly mindwiping her when she got too close to the truth. I had thought about this in the past (specifically the last time she walked in on a closet moment and he put her under), but it didn't hit me until this episode how much his desire to decide her future ran parallel to the boys' forcibly-extended childhood.
Now if Dean can only stand up to his dad and tell him "I want to be a writer!"
Now if Dean can only stand up to his dad and tell him "I want to be a writer!"
- by Doctor X
- (unregistered id: 5FDDC40EDA)
You know, Dr. Venture actually, almost, seemed like a father this episode. Granted, the "joke" of the series is an grown-up Johnny Quest is upset with his life, addicted to various medications, and has the Hardy Boys for sons whom he cannot stand . . . homicidal version of Race Bannon . . . and a villian that makes Adam West laugh. Cool. Doc and Jackson moved on for the obvious reason that jokes get stale.
There have been a few episodes where Doc is forced to try--I do not say he succeeds--grow up. The one before that is obvious.
So . . . when he quietly asks Dean, "are you alright," when he normally ignores his sons' collective antics--"Brock? You speak crazy."--he actually shows concern. Perhaps part of it was he knew whatever happened there was another clone. He never had to be a father.
Or not. Dr. Venture is hardly "Super Dad" at this point.
So . . . if Dean stands up to him . . . maybe . . . just maybe he listens?
There have been a few episodes where Doc is forced to try--I do not say he succeeds--grow up. The one before that is obvious.
So . . . when he quietly asks Dean, "are you alright," when he normally ignores his sons' collective antics--"Brock? You speak crazy."--he actually shows concern. Perhaps part of it was he knew whatever happened there was another clone. He never had to be a father.
Or not. Dr. Venture is hardly "Super Dad" at this point.
So . . . if Dean stands up to him . . . maybe . . . just maybe he listens?
- by clayton
- (unregistered id: 1BB709F5A6)
This is my favorite episode of the season so far. It had so many good points about it; Jefferson getting magic powers(kinda), meeting Orpheus's pupil that stole his wife, getting to see Orpheus's extremely hot wife, seeing what hank will look like in the future(possibly), Trianna finding out that Dean and Hank have been cloned, and my favorite line by Dean this season "Can I touch your pussy?"
and then goes to pet Dr.O's cat.
I was laughing my ass off at that part!
and then goes to pet Dr.O's cat.
I was laughing my ass off at that part!
- by Agent No
- (unregistered id: 9C88CC6F75)
I think Adult Swim is to the point where they're trying to mess with viewers to test exavtly how far they can push them and still have them come back.
That DVR thing pissed me off, and on top of that I was just scrolling thru my recording schedule about 11 PM and noticed that for some reason it was now considered a whole different show than the one I had been recording on a "record all episodes" for the past 2 years. I don't know that its their fault, but I still am growing further irritated with Adult Swim.
That DVR thing pissed me off, and on top of that I was just scrolling thru my recording schedule about 11 PM and noticed that for some reason it was now considered a whole different show than the one I had been recording on a "record all episodes" for the past 2 years. I don't know that its their fault, but I still am growing further irritated with Adult Swim.
- by Creepy Crooner
- (unregistered id: C0BBF56792)
It's true. AS has been wacky in regard to scheduling times since, well, pretty much since they have been on the air. I have metalocalypse set to tape after VB so it isn't a problem and even when they have a show scheduled afterwards that I don;t actually enjoy, I still set it to tape just in case of such a circumstance. I know it isn't perfect but DVR is still a relatively new technology.
Obviously AS is not trying to mess with viewers in some sort of strange test of their loyalty, as that wouldn't make any sense in any capacity, but they are infamously bad at sticking to a consistent weekly schedule.
Obviously AS is not trying to mess with viewers in some sort of strange test of their loyalty, as that wouldn't make any sense in any capacity, but they are infamously bad at sticking to a consistent weekly schedule.
- by Chris Thompson
- (unregistered id: D6E3D83D37)
Easily my favorite episode of the season. The humor was a perfect blend of parody, reference, and honest-to-God deconstruction of what actual people would be like in this world. THIS is the show I fell in love with!
Now, a question for the rest of the Venture-verse: Is there a dude hiding conspicuously in the bushes about 56 seconds into this clip?
http://video.adultswim.com/the-venture-bros/girl-island.html
Now, a question for the rest of the Venture-verse: Is there a dude hiding conspicuously in the bushes about 56 seconds into this clip?
http://video.adultswim.com/the-venture-bros/girl-island.html
- by Justin
- (unregistered id: 09DAB3B1F1)
Yeah I certainly don't see anyone behind the bushes in that scene - let alone Hatred.
This is with out a doubt my favorite episode of this season - perhaps because it focused on the Order of the Triad and definitely because it had Cthulhu in it. I agree with everybody else about what made this episode great - learning about Orpheus' past, Triana's possible future, the references, the cameos, Dean and Triana's kiss and what went with it.
I feel bad for Dean however. Was The Master just trying to scare Triana or do you all think that Dean is actually doomed? I mean clearly he's probably always going to be a complete loser, so to speak, but the thing about him never being able to have children because he's a clone is very sad.
This is with out a doubt my favorite episode of this season - perhaps because it focused on the Order of the Triad and definitely because it had Cthulhu in it. I agree with everybody else about what made this episode great - learning about Orpheus' past, Triana's possible future, the references, the cameos, Dean and Triana's kiss and what went with it.
I feel bad for Dean however. Was The Master just trying to scare Triana or do you all think that Dean is actually doomed? I mean clearly he's probably always going to be a complete loser, so to speak, but the thing about him never being able to have children because he's a clone is very sad.
- by Bonzo the Fifth
- (unregistered id: C9FBE4C019)
Yeah, but one of the other themes of the show that doesn't get as much play is redemption, which is something that's only now beginning to pick up steam after Season 3 effectively had all the major characters hit rock bottom. Basically, now most of the characters seem to be on the fast track to full character development.
In the case of Dean, the vision the Master used was probably quite accurate, given the Dean of the present, and extrapolated about thirty years or so. The thing is, particularly now, the boys are developing along tracks that don't necessarily line up with what was before. I mean look at the differences in the boys now than in other seasons.
a) The most obvious are the physical differences. Hank's hair has grown out, and Dean seems to be working on facial hair now.
b) the boys are actually leaving the compound and interacting with normal people (and Dermott).
c) Dr. Venture's treatment of the boys has drastically changed. This is probably the most important development of all, as now that the boys are no longer replaceable, Rusty seems to actually be taking an interest in their well being. Take the scene with Venture and Dean's conversation. If this conversation had taken place in any other season, Dr. Venture would have gotten annoyed or said some degrading, dismissive snark and chased him off. Now, he actually expresses a measure of concern, if only momentarily.
Given these differences, it's entirely possible that Dean and Hank will develop on wildly different tracks than they would have had they remained clones. Dean in particular may actually stand a chance of becoming a relatively well-adjusted adult, especially if Venture steps up to the parenting plate.
On another note, frankly, I've never seen a more humane case of ship-sinking than in this episode. They managed to kill the Dean/Triana angle in a way that did both characters justice. Other shows could really learn from this.
In the case of Dean, the vision the Master used was probably quite accurate, given the Dean of the present, and extrapolated about thirty years or so. The thing is, particularly now, the boys are developing along tracks that don't necessarily line up with what was before. I mean look at the differences in the boys now than in other seasons.
a) The most obvious are the physical differences. Hank's hair has grown out, and Dean seems to be working on facial hair now.
b) the boys are actually leaving the compound and interacting with normal people (and Dermott).
c) Dr. Venture's treatment of the boys has drastically changed. This is probably the most important development of all, as now that the boys are no longer replaceable, Rusty seems to actually be taking an interest in their well being. Take the scene with Venture and Dean's conversation. If this conversation had taken place in any other season, Dr. Venture would have gotten annoyed or said some degrading, dismissive snark and chased him off. Now, he actually expresses a measure of concern, if only momentarily.
Given these differences, it's entirely possible that Dean and Hank will develop on wildly different tracks than they would have had they remained clones. Dean in particular may actually stand a chance of becoming a relatively well-adjusted adult, especially if Venture steps up to the parenting plate.
On another note, frankly, I've never seen a more humane case of ship-sinking than in this episode. They managed to kill the Dean/Triana angle in a way that did both characters justice. Other shows could really learn from this.
- by Steve
- (unregistered id: 43231523EF)
One of the things that bothered me about this episode was about Dean's future. This season has had a whole lot of character redemptions in it. Sgt. Hatred leaving the Guild, siding with the good guys, and stop touching young boys (although we're still in the middle of his story at the moment, but he's improving). Dr. Orpheus coming to terms with his wife leaving him for his student, and stop protecting his daughter and let her make her own way in the world. 21 coming to grips with 24's death and remoulding himself into the best henchman he can be. Even Brock, who's left a job that was basically beneath him and his abilities and going off to do something more important, which hopefully will pan out well this season. Dr. Venture was also somewhat redeemed after his realization at the end of Self-Medication.
I always saw Triana as Dean's way out of his crazy boy adventurer life and into something resembling normalcy. This episode makes Dean look like he has no future to look forward to. He's not really into super science, his 'true love' (as mentioned in Eeny, Meeny, Miney... Magic!) has left, and now he's heading down the same path his father took, which won't end well for him since he's not really cut out for that kind of thing. Rusty was a fraction of the scientist his father was, and Dean will be a fraction of his father. I just hope they'll write something for the boys that'll improve their lives and give them futures to look forward to. I'd like to see Dean find redemption. And I'd like to know that Hank even has a future, since very little has been speculated about him at all. He won't get into the super science game, since he doesn't have the aptitude for it, so maybe he'll end up as Dean's future bodyguard?
I always saw Triana as Dean's way out of his crazy boy adventurer life and into something resembling normalcy. This episode makes Dean look like he has no future to look forward to. He's not really into super science, his 'true love' (as mentioned in Eeny, Meeny, Miney... Magic!) has left, and now he's heading down the same path his father took, which won't end well for him since he's not really cut out for that kind of thing. Rusty was a fraction of the scientist his father was, and Dean will be a fraction of his father. I just hope they'll write something for the boys that'll improve their lives and give them futures to look forward to. I'd like to see Dean find redemption. And I'd like to know that Hank even has a future, since very little has been speculated about him at all. He won't get into the super science game, since he doesn't have the aptitude for it, so maybe he'll end up as Dean's future bodyguard?
- by Doctor X
- (unregistered id: 5FDDC40EDA)
I think . . . I THINK . . . that the "point" of the Master is if Triana just settled with the "safe" innocent Dean that is what she would get. And she would be angry, unfullfilled, and all of that. Just in a way opposite to the Outrider who admitted that he wanted a family. As you probably remember, the Master slaps Orpheus stating his wife left him BECAUSE he did not pay attention to her.
How could he not . . . the mind boggles!
If Dean continued on the path of innocence where, basically, he becomes Ozzie to Triana's Odd-Harriet he would be as the Master describes. She is "his girlfriend" he thought until he realizes he has done NOTHING with her that even remotely resembles a relationship--like talking!
Both needed to strike on their own. As I muse above in another comment, maybe in 10 or 20 years they can meet again, but Dean will be a different Dean as will Triana. Assuming they are not dead!
I think the Master is "white lying" about Dean's genetics--if they were that bad he would have not developed, and Dr. Venture appears to screen for such things . . . save male pattern baldness?
How could he not . . . the mind boggles!
If Dean continued on the path of innocence where, basically, he becomes Ozzie to Triana's Odd-Harriet he would be as the Master describes. She is "his girlfriend" he thought until he realizes he has done NOTHING with her that even remotely resembles a relationship--like talking!
Both needed to strike on their own. As I muse above in another comment, maybe in 10 or 20 years they can meet again, but Dean will be a different Dean as will Triana. Assuming they are not dead!
I think the Master is "white lying" about Dean's genetics--if they were that bad he would have not developed, and Dr. Venture appears to screen for such things . . . save male pattern baldness?
- by brendanm720
- (unregistered id: 460EF48DC5)
Dean's only a first (or maybe second) generation copy of himself... All of the clone slugs were the same age, after all, so we can safely assume that they were all grown at about the same time. The genetic drift shouldn't be nearly severe enough to cause problems, should he choose to reproduce later.
It's only when you make copies of copies of copies of copies that you run into trouble.
It's only when you make copies of copies of copies of copies that you run into trouble.
- by clayton
- (unregistered id: 1BB709F5A6)
So by the description of Dean and Trianna's kid by Dr.O's master wouldn't that mean that Hanks children will have birth defects too because Hank and Dean were both cloned the same amount of times. And brendanm720 I know my reply to your post doesn't go with what you just said but I thought this was a good spot to post my Idea about hank's gene "septic tank".
- by Charlie
- (unregistered id: C69B2DC60F)
You guys are on to something here with the 'boys growing up' thing.
Think even of last epi when the plan the boys had to trick Hatred actually WORKED to perfection--they came up with it, executed it, and even brought in help. That's a far cry from the days of when they would, well, CRY when confronted with stress of almost any kind (esp. Dean).
Think even of last epi when the plan the boys had to trick Hatred actually WORKED to perfection--they came up with it, executed it, and even brought in help. That's a far cry from the days of when they would, well, CRY when confronted with stress of almost any kind (esp. Dean).
- by Doctor X
- (unregistered id: 5FDDC40EDA)
Indeed, Charlie--or come up with some utterly ridiculous plan that never works in the "real world!"
As for the genetics, I will just remind that Dr. Venture proudly announced how he cleaned up the susceptibility to cancer in the clone of the kid who got killed by the gorilla. Notice he was able to get the "clone slug" more mature than "infant." I doubt he would leave such errors--remember his comment about forgetting to fix the testicular torsion in the "prototype" or something like that?
Then, again, I doubt Doc and Jackson think that deeply into things! :)
As for the genetics, I will just remind that Dr. Venture proudly announced how he cleaned up the susceptibility to cancer in the clone of the kid who got killed by the gorilla. Notice he was able to get the "clone slug" more mature than "infant." I doubt he would leave such errors--remember his comment about forgetting to fix the testicular torsion in the "prototype" or something like that?
Then, again, I doubt Doc and Jackson think that deeply into things! :)
- by Pvt. Schwa
- (unregistered id: BB7AC5FBA9)
The Master wanted to convey two things to Triana:
1) Her father was wiping her memory to keep things from her (the boys being cloned was an illustration of this)
2) If she stays at the Venture Compound, she will get locked into a mutually unfulfilling relationship with Dean, and she should leave and get on with her life
Beyond these two points, I don't think we should take anything he says at face value. I doubt he had an actual headache when he was talking to Dr. O; he cares more about conveying a message than telling the objective truth.
1) Her father was wiping her memory to keep things from her (the boys being cloned was an illustration of this)
2) If she stays at the Venture Compound, she will get locked into a mutually unfulfilling relationship with Dean, and she should leave and get on with her life
Beyond these two points, I don't think we should take anything he says at face value. I doubt he had an actual headache when he was talking to Dr. O; he cares more about conveying a message than telling the objective truth.
- by InActionMan
- (unregistered id: 952E7341C6)
I think the Master's avatar of future Dean was the Master reflecting Triana's own subconscious anxieties back at her. I think it was also misdirection by Jackson and Doc.
I am holding onto my theory that Dean is actually a Jonas Sr. clone. Dean will probably grow four inches and fill out either during the winter break or between seasons 4.2 and five. That is of course if we get a season five. The Venture-verse is so deep and rich that the show could probably go on forever.
I am holding onto my theory that Dean is actually a Jonas Sr. clone. Dean will probably grow four inches and fill out either during the winter break or between seasons 4.2 and five. That is of course if we get a season five. The Venture-verse is so deep and rich that the show could probably go on forever.
- by Henchman 11
- (unregistered id: 5E69D79D8F)
I think they make for the most INTERESTING idea.
The cloning was a Jonas Sr. invention that Rusty 'took over'.
I'm just saying that just because a viewer(s) may have 'guessed' it to disregard that JUST to try to 'do the unexpected' isn't always the best STORY to be told. A 'twist' for a twist's sake isn't always fulfilling. I'd rather a good story. Just like when people 'guessed' after the first season that the boys would be back as clones.
If Jackson and Doc had said, "Oops. They guessed on the message boards so we can't do that now. Lets bring in the duke boys cousins." maybe instead of the great seasons 2 & 3 we would have had garbage the was cancelled before season 2 was over.
The cloning was a Jonas Sr. invention that Rusty 'took over'.
I'm just saying that just because a viewer(s) may have 'guessed' it to disregard that JUST to try to 'do the unexpected' isn't always the best STORY to be told. A 'twist' for a twist's sake isn't always fulfilling. I'd rather a good story. Just like when people 'guessed' after the first season that the boys would be back as clones.
If Jackson and Doc had said, "Oops. They guessed on the message boards so we can't do that now. Lets bring in the duke boys cousins." maybe instead of the great seasons 2 & 3 we would have had garbage the was cancelled before season 2 was over.
- by InActionMan
- (unregistered id: 952E7341C6)
No, I am being serious because it is the most interesting idea and it sort of runs with one of the show's main themes, the relationship between parents and children. Jonas Sr. being the source of the Dean clone would mean that in essence Rusty is raising his own father.
Will Dean turn out better than Jonas Sr.? It's hard to say at this point. Jonas was a pretty bad father but, He did have his good points: Successful super - scientist, business tycoon, all evidence points to him not being a bigot. The 60s version of Team Venture had Blacks, Asians, Jews, Bi-Sexuals (Is Col. Gentlemen Gay or was Ms. Quymn just a beard?) and half-fish men. However, Jonas also made Rusty kill a man with key, let the ActionMan wake Rusty up in the middle of the night, put an empty gun against Rusty's head, pull the trigger and say "Not tonight Rusty, Not tonight." and locked a bunch of nerve gas poisoned orphans in the Venture bomb shelter for twenty years. Dean seems to have a great deal of compassion but, he is terrified of everything.
I think Jackson and Doc have placed a few clues out there as to Dean's true status. The most recent one being that only Dean could christen Bowie as the true Sovereign . They never showed us the GCI charter, but ,one would think that it said something to the effect that only the oldest living Venture could designate who was the Sovereign. How could be Dean be the oldest living Venture? Jonas Sr. is dead and both Rusty and Jonas Jr. would seem to qualify as the oldest unless from a genetic standpoint Dean is the oldest because he is Jonas Sr.'s clone
Will Dean turn out better than Jonas Sr.? It's hard to say at this point. Jonas was a pretty bad father but, He did have his good points: Successful super - scientist, business tycoon, all evidence points to him not being a bigot. The 60s version of Team Venture had Blacks, Asians, Jews, Bi-Sexuals (Is Col. Gentlemen Gay or was Ms. Quymn just a beard?) and half-fish men. However, Jonas also made Rusty kill a man with key, let the ActionMan wake Rusty up in the middle of the night, put an empty gun against Rusty's head, pull the trigger and say "Not tonight Rusty, Not tonight." and locked a bunch of nerve gas poisoned orphans in the Venture bomb shelter for twenty years. Dean seems to have a great deal of compassion but, he is terrified of everything.
I think Jackson and Doc have placed a few clues out there as to Dean's true status. The most recent one being that only Dean could christen Bowie as the true Sovereign . They never showed us the GCI charter, but ,one would think that it said something to the effect that only the oldest living Venture could designate who was the Sovereign. How could be Dean be the oldest living Venture? Jonas Sr. is dead and both Rusty and Jonas Jr. would seem to qualify as the oldest unless from a genetic standpoint Dean is the oldest because he is Jonas Sr.'s clone
- by cpc65
- (unregistered id: C1880968BC)
Yeah. Apparently Dr. O decided to wipe her mind after "Powerless in the Face of Death" instead of explaining to her the boys were clones, so he must have also removed her memories of them dying as well. At one of the cons, some guy asked Doc and JP if she knew they were clones, and they would only answer by asking him what he thought. His guess was that she knew (which we now know was not so), and they were like, "So she knows they're clones. Where's the problem with that?"
My own thoughts on this is that I can't help but feel the Master has his own agenda here, and might be manipulating things to his (or some higher power's) advantage, and he may not be quite the benevolent and guiding beacon he would appear to be.
It would not surprise me to learn he had some involvement with Dr. O's wife leaving him for The Outrider. Now, for some reason, he wants Triana to become a sorceress. He made the closet door open so that she would enter and he could pull his “I'm loser adult Dean†trick to help convince her she had no future there, for get her and to move in with her mom, who happened to leave Dr. O years ago. Hmmmm.
My own thoughts on this is that I can't help but feel the Master has his own agenda here, and might be manipulating things to his (or some higher power's) advantage, and he may not be quite the benevolent and guiding beacon he would appear to be.
It would not surprise me to learn he had some involvement with Dr. O's wife leaving him for The Outrider. Now, for some reason, he wants Triana to become a sorceress. He made the closet door open so that she would enter and he could pull his “I'm loser adult Dean†trick to help convince her she had no future there, for get her and to move in with her mom, who happened to leave Dr. O years ago. Hmmmm.
- by Creepy Crooner
- (unregistered id: C0BBF56792)
The dingus joke seemed two-fold to me - to establish the Alchemist as a gay character for those who may not have watched the show previously (even Venture Brothers throws new viewers a bone in this way from time to time) and to set up the real (and quite hilarious) punchline of the bit - "are you embarrassed by your ignorance?" "constantly!" That right there is some Hank gold! The conversation about Al's penis is really just a mildly funny way to get to the real joke.
Also, the pussy joke was a little cheap but thoroughly gut-busting and they tied it in later when the cat actually talks.
Also, the pussy joke was a little cheap but thoroughly gut-busting and they tied it in later when the cat actually talks.
- by Doctor X
- (unregistered id: 5FDDC40EDA)
I think so--Mrs. Slocombe--but also because the humor is that Dean is not even trying to be funny--as Dermot would try--he actually wants to pet her cat. Hence her reflexive reaction and then softening. We are talking about the guy who cries when twin blonds attempted to fulfill every heterosexual male puberty fantasy. He is that innocent.
But he is getting curious.
But he is getting curious.
- by Chris Thompson
- (unregistered id: D6E3D83D37)
Love the episode though I did, I do have to agree about the dingus/pussy(cat) jokes. The dingus one at least had the payoff of "Aren't you just a little ashamed of your ignorance? / Yeah, constantly!" but both it and the pussy joke are cheap, easy gags that are beneath Doc and Jackson's norm of insightful humor.
- by cpc65
- (unregistered id: C1880968BC)
Off topic a bit here, but I was just playing Torchlight (a fairly new and pretty good hack n' slash Diablo type RPG) and had a suite of armor drop from a slain boss monster, and it is called the Technicolor Nightmare Coat. YES!!! Obviously, at least one of the developers is a VB fan. While it is not a long rainbow colored robe, it does offer high protection from all elemental type damage. And it accentuates the bosoms of the female character quite nicely. It's nice that a show known for pop culture references has now become a bit of a pop culture reference itself.
- by Joey Michaels
- (unregistered id: 4ED236138D)
- by Joe
- (unregistered id: D27323FDCE)
It's probably been mentioned before, but I've finally confirmed what I've sorta known all along: The reason I'm having trouble getting into this season is the serious lack of Brock.
I wouldn't build the entire show around him of course (and Doc and Jackson certainly don't) but he was able to act as an anchor for me. He was, for the most part, the only one who was halfway grounded in "our" reality, i.e. the fact that the whole superheroes and super scientists and super-villians thing and the bureaucratic absurdity that it's been taken to, is just plain, well, absurd.
While other characters are utterly clueless, he's on top of things, but at the same time doesn't rub it in their face (like Rusty and his Best Little Whorehouse In Texas thing) all that much.
The boys are clueless, Rusty's pretty naive and addled from "20 years of amphetamines and failture, the Order of Triad's reason for being is, as the Alchemist put it, "totally gay" and the Monarch is, well, a serious butterfly fetishist.
But Brock, he's merely stuck on Zep and his Charger. He was railroaded by Sergeant Hatred into Operation Rusty's Blanket due to matters mostly beyond his control.
So Brock, to me, is the "reality" anchor of the show...and I've missed that.
But yes, that's how the show is progressing. The boys are (finally) growing up beyond being 16 years old and Rusty is having to actually be a father to two mortal boys...all without Brock's influence and help. So, here's to a good Season 4.1 finale and a big payoff in Season 4.2
I wouldn't build the entire show around him of course (and Doc and Jackson certainly don't) but he was able to act as an anchor for me. He was, for the most part, the only one who was halfway grounded in "our" reality, i.e. the fact that the whole superheroes and super scientists and super-villians thing and the bureaucratic absurdity that it's been taken to, is just plain, well, absurd.
While other characters are utterly clueless, he's on top of things, but at the same time doesn't rub it in their face (like Rusty and his Best Little Whorehouse In Texas thing) all that much.
The boys are clueless, Rusty's pretty naive and addled from "20 years of amphetamines and failture, the Order of Triad's reason for being is, as the Alchemist put it, "totally gay" and the Monarch is, well, a serious butterfly fetishist.
But Brock, he's merely stuck on Zep and his Charger. He was railroaded by Sergeant Hatred into Operation Rusty's Blanket due to matters mostly beyond his control.
So Brock, to me, is the "reality" anchor of the show...and I've missed that.
But yes, that's how the show is progressing. The boys are (finally) growing up beyond being 16 years old and Rusty is having to actually be a father to two mortal boys...all without Brock's influence and help. So, here's to a good Season 4.1 finale and a big payoff in Season 4.2
- by vein train
- (unregistered id: 4C7284CA08)
Dermott is a real guy. i'm sure i was in school with him. he listened to the Ramones and that was the only thing he had going for him. other than his lie world.
Brock, i dont kno anyone like him or need to. more women action is what i miss. Dr. Girlfriend kicking ass, i could do with that for a whole season. seriously, who would you pick as a badygaurd? Brock or one of the kick ass ladies from this show? Sharon Stone/the mom aside.
Brock, i dont kno anyone like him or need to. more women action is what i miss. Dr. Girlfriend kicking ass, i could do with that for a whole season. seriously, who would you pick as a badygaurd? Brock or one of the kick ass ladies from this show? Sharon Stone/the mom aside.
- by Hoff
- (unregistered id: 125D2FF0B7)
I take Brock in a heartbeat - he's probably the biggest reason I like this show so much. And I totally agree with Joe. While the last night was pretty funny, this whole season has been out there. Sorry to Doc and Jackson, but I never really like Hatred very much. I'm really missing Brock's character, as well as his kicking ass all the time.
- by Joe
- (unregistered id: D27323FDCE)
vein train,
You're right, Dermott is a real guy, and I'm pretty sure he went to my school too.
Change that blondish greasy mullet to a brown greasy mullet and he's the spitting image. Same propensity for exaggeration, although not as absurd as Dermott is.
Actually a rather bizarre yet pleasant surprise to hear him give some decent advice during this ep
You're right, Dermott is a real guy, and I'm pretty sure he went to my school too.
Change that blondish greasy mullet to a brown greasy mullet and he's the spitting image. Same propensity for exaggeration, although not as absurd as Dermott is.
Actually a rather bizarre yet pleasant surprise to hear him give some decent advice during this ep
- by Chris Thompson
- (unregistered id: D6E3D83D37)
I very much agree, Joe. The theme of the show is failure, as Doc and Jackson are glad to point out. Brock was the only character who wasn't really a failure. Yeah, he was stuck on a crappy assignment, sure. But he's also a jacked badass killing machine with a sweet car who gets laid every other episode when he isn't continuing his on-again, off-again love affair with Jessica Rabbit's deadlier little sister. You NEED that likable success amid all those losers otherwise it's just too much failure.
- by jjjj
- (unregistered id: 608FF5051E)
Actually, Brock is failure at one thing. For the purposes of the show its pretty minor, but he is failure at controlling his rage. Even now after all these seasons get him a bit angry and hell murder a bunch of henchmen and supervillains. He's also a failure at dying(which I am very glad for).
- by Joe
- (unregistered id: D27323FDCE)
Sure, Brock has plenty of failures about him (is that grammatically correct?) but he was at least successful in what he did for a living, hair-trigger temper notwithstanding. But since the theme of the show is failure, he was railroaded out of active field ops into a "rookie" assignment.
Say, speaking of Operation Rusty's Blanket, I wonder if OSI knew that Orb was broken all along or not...certainly Jonas Sr. didn't know, otherwise why go through those whole clues and puzzle rigmarole...UNLESS he was hiding something ELSE and the Orb hunt thing was a red herring!
Say, speaking of Operation Rusty's Blanket, I wonder if OSI knew that Orb was broken all along or not...certainly Jonas Sr. didn't know, otherwise why go through those whole clues and puzzle rigmarole...UNLESS he was hiding something ELSE and the Orb hunt thing was a red herring!
- by Pvt. Schwa
- (unregistered id: BB7AC5FBA9)
I have to take issue with the way people refer to the theme of the show. OK, it's about failure, we get it, but that doesn't mean that every character is a complete failure in every situation. Every character has crippling flaws, but they manage to rise above them sometimes, and that is a lot more poignant than watching a bunch of infallible people succeed all the time.
- by Joe
- (unregistered id: D27323FDCE)
Yeah, I can see your point and I totally agree. I through that remark about failure in there mostly to forestall criticism of my characterization of Brock as being the most successful one in the bunch.
Having said that, I'll expand upon it:
Frankly, I don't see how Brock is a failure at all.
So he has a hair-trigger temper. So what? That was more a 1st Season thing to begin with (the bartender at the strip club, Bud Manstrong etc).
His banishment to being Rusty's bodyguard, as it turns out, wasn't a failure of his at all.
The most "failure" I've seen out of him was his final realization that he'd seen enough weirdness, so he quit and let himself go for a few months...only to return with a new "life" and a new purpose with Sphinx.
And THAT is why I've had trouble identifying with Season 4.1
We'd temporarily lost the one truly competent character on the show.
Granted, other characters have stepped up and matured and developed, most especially 21, so maybe that was the point: Allow the other characters the opportunity to shine while the one successful guy on the show was given a hiatus.
Having said that, I'll expand upon it:
Frankly, I don't see how Brock is a failure at all.
So he has a hair-trigger temper. So what? That was more a 1st Season thing to begin with (the bartender at the strip club, Bud Manstrong etc).
His banishment to being Rusty's bodyguard, as it turns out, wasn't a failure of his at all.
The most "failure" I've seen out of him was his final realization that he'd seen enough weirdness, so he quit and let himself go for a few months...only to return with a new "life" and a new purpose with Sphinx.
And THAT is why I've had trouble identifying with Season 4.1
We'd temporarily lost the one truly competent character on the show.
Granted, other characters have stepped up and matured and developed, most especially 21, so maybe that was the point: Allow the other characters the opportunity to shine while the one successful guy on the show was given a hiatus.
- by Creepy Crooner
- (unregistered id: C0BBF56792)
Also, totally stoked on what might be the most obscure reference ever on the show (which is a tall order) - when Outrider's ear falls off Al makes a joke about losing his "dino damage". This is a reference to the action figures that came out when the first Jurassic Park film was released (which had breakaway limbs/heads/pieces of flesh that would simulate severe injury). Awesome!
- by Mike
- (unregistered id: 1810A2A1DF)
- by Sidtheskitch
- (unregistered id: 4EE8F2E23C)
I was going to comment this earlier and decided it wasn't worth it since I have to mess with my internet settings everytime I try to reply here for some unknown reason. Point is... I had a stegasaurus with a chunk missing and you could see his ribs. Are you sure your thinking of the right one? Because my T Rex was orangish and black and had something else wrong with him.
- by Mike
- (unregistered id: D548A83739)
Yeah I remember it surprisingly well. There was also another, much larger T Rex that didn't have any dino damage but instead made foot stomping noises and roared (I had one of those as well). I'm sure there were also numerous incarnations of the dinosaurs as well, so there may have been another dino damage t rex or something.
- by Sidtheskitch
- (unregistered id: 4EE8F2E23C)
Drove 13 miles to my parents house just to find my old JP toys. I was correct on the Stegasaurus (sp!?!?!), but my T Rex was NOT a dino damage toy. He was rubbery and had moving legs or something, but since the batteries were dead so such luck of getting him to move or roar. I also had a JP jeep for my action figured to ride around in, some random charecters and other small dinos.
- by Waynooski
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