Comment Thread
- by Justin
- (unregistered id: 09DAB3B1F1)
Yeah I certainly don't see anyone behind the bushes in that scene - let alone Hatred.
This is with out a doubt my favorite episode of this season - perhaps because it focused on the Order of the Triad and definitely because it had Cthulhu in it. I agree with everybody else about what made this episode great - learning about Orpheus' past, Triana's possible future, the references, the cameos, Dean and Triana's kiss and what went with it.
I feel bad for Dean however. Was The Master just trying to scare Triana or do you all think that Dean is actually doomed? I mean clearly he's probably always going to be a complete loser, so to speak, but the thing about him never being able to have children because he's a clone is very sad.
This is with out a doubt my favorite episode of this season - perhaps because it focused on the Order of the Triad and definitely because it had Cthulhu in it. I agree with everybody else about what made this episode great - learning about Orpheus' past, Triana's possible future, the references, the cameos, Dean and Triana's kiss and what went with it.
I feel bad for Dean however. Was The Master just trying to scare Triana or do you all think that Dean is actually doomed? I mean clearly he's probably always going to be a complete loser, so to speak, but the thing about him never being able to have children because he's a clone is very sad.
- by Bonzo the Fifth
- (unregistered id: C9FBE4C019)
Yeah, but one of the other themes of the show that doesn't get as much play is redemption, which is something that's only now beginning to pick up steam after Season 3 effectively had all the major characters hit rock bottom. Basically, now most of the characters seem to be on the fast track to full character development.
In the case of Dean, the vision the Master used was probably quite accurate, given the Dean of the present, and extrapolated about thirty years or so. The thing is, particularly now, the boys are developing along tracks that don't necessarily line up with what was before. I mean look at the differences in the boys now than in other seasons.
a) The most obvious are the physical differences. Hank's hair has grown out, and Dean seems to be working on facial hair now.
b) the boys are actually leaving the compound and interacting with normal people (and Dermott).
c) Dr. Venture's treatment of the boys has drastically changed. This is probably the most important development of all, as now that the boys are no longer replaceable, Rusty seems to actually be taking an interest in their well being. Take the scene with Venture and Dean's conversation. If this conversation had taken place in any other season, Dr. Venture would have gotten annoyed or said some degrading, dismissive snark and chased him off. Now, he actually expresses a measure of concern, if only momentarily.
Given these differences, it's entirely possible that Dean and Hank will develop on wildly different tracks than they would have had they remained clones. Dean in particular may actually stand a chance of becoming a relatively well-adjusted adult, especially if Venture steps up to the parenting plate.
On another note, frankly, I've never seen a more humane case of ship-sinking than in this episode. They managed to kill the Dean/Triana angle in a way that did both characters justice. Other shows could really learn from this.
In the case of Dean, the vision the Master used was probably quite accurate, given the Dean of the present, and extrapolated about thirty years or so. The thing is, particularly now, the boys are developing along tracks that don't necessarily line up with what was before. I mean look at the differences in the boys now than in other seasons.
a) The most obvious are the physical differences. Hank's hair has grown out, and Dean seems to be working on facial hair now.
b) the boys are actually leaving the compound and interacting with normal people (and Dermott).
c) Dr. Venture's treatment of the boys has drastically changed. This is probably the most important development of all, as now that the boys are no longer replaceable, Rusty seems to actually be taking an interest in their well being. Take the scene with Venture and Dean's conversation. If this conversation had taken place in any other season, Dr. Venture would have gotten annoyed or said some degrading, dismissive snark and chased him off. Now, he actually expresses a measure of concern, if only momentarily.
Given these differences, it's entirely possible that Dean and Hank will develop on wildly different tracks than they would have had they remained clones. Dean in particular may actually stand a chance of becoming a relatively well-adjusted adult, especially if Venture steps up to the parenting plate.
On another note, frankly, I've never seen a more humane case of ship-sinking than in this episode. They managed to kill the Dean/Triana angle in a way that did both characters justice. Other shows could really learn from this.
- by Steve
- (unregistered id: 43231523EF)
One of the things that bothered me about this episode was about Dean's future. This season has had a whole lot of character redemptions in it. Sgt. Hatred leaving the Guild, siding with the good guys, and stop touching young boys (although we're still in the middle of his story at the moment, but he's improving). Dr. Orpheus coming to terms with his wife leaving him for his student, and stop protecting his daughter and let her make her own way in the world. 21 coming to grips with 24's death and remoulding himself into the best henchman he can be. Even Brock, who's left a job that was basically beneath him and his abilities and going off to do something more important, which hopefully will pan out well this season. Dr. Venture was also somewhat redeemed after his realization at the end of Self-Medication.
I always saw Triana as Dean's way out of his crazy boy adventurer life and into something resembling normalcy. This episode makes Dean look like he has no future to look forward to. He's not really into super science, his 'true love' (as mentioned in Eeny, Meeny, Miney... Magic!) has left, and now he's heading down the same path his father took, which won't end well for him since he's not really cut out for that kind of thing. Rusty was a fraction of the scientist his father was, and Dean will be a fraction of his father. I just hope they'll write something for the boys that'll improve their lives and give them futures to look forward to. I'd like to see Dean find redemption. And I'd like to know that Hank even has a future, since very little has been speculated about him at all. He won't get into the super science game, since he doesn't have the aptitude for it, so maybe he'll end up as Dean's future bodyguard?
I always saw Triana as Dean's way out of his crazy boy adventurer life and into something resembling normalcy. This episode makes Dean look like he has no future to look forward to. He's not really into super science, his 'true love' (as mentioned in Eeny, Meeny, Miney... Magic!) has left, and now he's heading down the same path his father took, which won't end well for him since he's not really cut out for that kind of thing. Rusty was a fraction of the scientist his father was, and Dean will be a fraction of his father. I just hope they'll write something for the boys that'll improve their lives and give them futures to look forward to. I'd like to see Dean find redemption. And I'd like to know that Hank even has a future, since very little has been speculated about him at all. He won't get into the super science game, since he doesn't have the aptitude for it, so maybe he'll end up as Dean's future bodyguard?
- by Doctor X
- (unregistered id: 5FDDC40EDA)
I think . . . I THINK . . . that the "point" of the Master is if Triana just settled with the "safe" innocent Dean that is what she would get. And she would be angry, unfullfilled, and all of that. Just in a way opposite to the Outrider who admitted that he wanted a family. As you probably remember, the Master slaps Orpheus stating his wife left him BECAUSE he did not pay attention to her.
How could he not . . . the mind boggles!
If Dean continued on the path of innocence where, basically, he becomes Ozzie to Triana's Odd-Harriet he would be as the Master describes. She is "his girlfriend" he thought until he realizes he has done NOTHING with her that even remotely resembles a relationship--like talking!
Both needed to strike on their own. As I muse above in another comment, maybe in 10 or 20 years they can meet again, but Dean will be a different Dean as will Triana. Assuming they are not dead!
I think the Master is "white lying" about Dean's genetics--if they were that bad he would have not developed, and Dr. Venture appears to screen for such things . . . save male pattern baldness?
How could he not . . . the mind boggles!
If Dean continued on the path of innocence where, basically, he becomes Ozzie to Triana's Odd-Harriet he would be as the Master describes. She is "his girlfriend" he thought until he realizes he has done NOTHING with her that even remotely resembles a relationship--like talking!
Both needed to strike on their own. As I muse above in another comment, maybe in 10 or 20 years they can meet again, but Dean will be a different Dean as will Triana. Assuming they are not dead!
I think the Master is "white lying" about Dean's genetics--if they were that bad he would have not developed, and Dr. Venture appears to screen for such things . . . save male pattern baldness?
- by brendanm720
- (unregistered id: 460EF48DC5)
Dean's only a first (or maybe second) generation copy of himself... All of the clone slugs were the same age, after all, so we can safely assume that they were all grown at about the same time. The genetic drift shouldn't be nearly severe enough to cause problems, should he choose to reproduce later.
It's only when you make copies of copies of copies of copies that you run into trouble.
It's only when you make copies of copies of copies of copies that you run into trouble.
- by clayton
- (unregistered id: 1BB709F5A6)
So by the description of Dean and Trianna's kid by Dr.O's master wouldn't that mean that Hanks children will have birth defects too because Hank and Dean were both cloned the same amount of times. And brendanm720 I know my reply to your post doesn't go with what you just said but I thought this was a good spot to post my Idea about hank's gene "septic tank".
- by Charlie
- (unregistered id: C69B2DC60F)
You guys are on to something here with the 'boys growing up' thing.
Think even of last epi when the plan the boys had to trick Hatred actually WORKED to perfection--they came up with it, executed it, and even brought in help. That's a far cry from the days of when they would, well, CRY when confronted with stress of almost any kind (esp. Dean).
Think even of last epi when the plan the boys had to trick Hatred actually WORKED to perfection--they came up with it, executed it, and even brought in help. That's a far cry from the days of when they would, well, CRY when confronted with stress of almost any kind (esp. Dean).
- by Doctor X
- (unregistered id: 5FDDC40EDA)
Indeed, Charlie--or come up with some utterly ridiculous plan that never works in the "real world!"
As for the genetics, I will just remind that Dr. Venture proudly announced how he cleaned up the susceptibility to cancer in the clone of the kid who got killed by the gorilla. Notice he was able to get the "clone slug" more mature than "infant." I doubt he would leave such errors--remember his comment about forgetting to fix the testicular torsion in the "prototype" or something like that?
Then, again, I doubt Doc and Jackson think that deeply into things! :)
As for the genetics, I will just remind that Dr. Venture proudly announced how he cleaned up the susceptibility to cancer in the clone of the kid who got killed by the gorilla. Notice he was able to get the "clone slug" more mature than "infant." I doubt he would leave such errors--remember his comment about forgetting to fix the testicular torsion in the "prototype" or something like that?
Then, again, I doubt Doc and Jackson think that deeply into things! :)
- by Pvt. Schwa
- (unregistered id: BB7AC5FBA9)
The Master wanted to convey two things to Triana:
1) Her father was wiping her memory to keep things from her (the boys being cloned was an illustration of this)
2) If she stays at the Venture Compound, she will get locked into a mutually unfulfilling relationship with Dean, and she should leave and get on with her life
Beyond these two points, I don't think we should take anything he says at face value. I doubt he had an actual headache when he was talking to Dr. O; he cares more about conveying a message than telling the objective truth.
1) Her father was wiping her memory to keep things from her (the boys being cloned was an illustration of this)
2) If she stays at the Venture Compound, she will get locked into a mutually unfulfilling relationship with Dean, and she should leave and get on with her life
Beyond these two points, I don't think we should take anything he says at face value. I doubt he had an actual headache when he was talking to Dr. O; he cares more about conveying a message than telling the objective truth.
- by InActionMan
- (unregistered id: 952E7341C6)
I think the Master's avatar of future Dean was the Master reflecting Triana's own subconscious anxieties back at her. I think it was also misdirection by Jackson and Doc.
I am holding onto my theory that Dean is actually a Jonas Sr. clone. Dean will probably grow four inches and fill out either during the winter break or between seasons 4.2 and five. That is of course if we get a season five. The Venture-verse is so deep and rich that the show could probably go on forever.
I am holding onto my theory that Dean is actually a Jonas Sr. clone. Dean will probably grow four inches and fill out either during the winter break or between seasons 4.2 and five. That is of course if we get a season five. The Venture-verse is so deep and rich that the show could probably go on forever.
- by Henchman 11
- (unregistered id: 5E69D79D8F)
I think they make for the most INTERESTING idea.
The cloning was a Jonas Sr. invention that Rusty 'took over'.
I'm just saying that just because a viewer(s) may have 'guessed' it to disregard that JUST to try to 'do the unexpected' isn't always the best STORY to be told. A 'twist' for a twist's sake isn't always fulfilling. I'd rather a good story. Just like when people 'guessed' after the first season that the boys would be back as clones.
If Jackson and Doc had said, "Oops. They guessed on the message boards so we can't do that now. Lets bring in the duke boys cousins." maybe instead of the great seasons 2 & 3 we would have had garbage the was cancelled before season 2 was over.
The cloning was a Jonas Sr. invention that Rusty 'took over'.
I'm just saying that just because a viewer(s) may have 'guessed' it to disregard that JUST to try to 'do the unexpected' isn't always the best STORY to be told. A 'twist' for a twist's sake isn't always fulfilling. I'd rather a good story. Just like when people 'guessed' after the first season that the boys would be back as clones.
If Jackson and Doc had said, "Oops. They guessed on the message boards so we can't do that now. Lets bring in the duke boys cousins." maybe instead of the great seasons 2 & 3 we would have had garbage the was cancelled before season 2 was over.
- by InActionMan
- (unregistered id: 952E7341C6)
No, I am being serious because it is the most interesting idea and it sort of runs with one of the show's main themes, the relationship between parents and children. Jonas Sr. being the source of the Dean clone would mean that in essence Rusty is raising his own father.
Will Dean turn out better than Jonas Sr.? It's hard to say at this point. Jonas was a pretty bad father but, He did have his good points: Successful super - scientist, business tycoon, all evidence points to him not being a bigot. The 60s version of Team Venture had Blacks, Asians, Jews, Bi-Sexuals (Is Col. Gentlemen Gay or was Ms. Quymn just a beard?) and half-fish men. However, Jonas also made Rusty kill a man with key, let the ActionMan wake Rusty up in the middle of the night, put an empty gun against Rusty's head, pull the trigger and say "Not tonight Rusty, Not tonight." and locked a bunch of nerve gas poisoned orphans in the Venture bomb shelter for twenty years. Dean seems to have a great deal of compassion but, he is terrified of everything.
I think Jackson and Doc have placed a few clues out there as to Dean's true status. The most recent one being that only Dean could christen Bowie as the true Sovereign . They never showed us the GCI charter, but ,one would think that it said something to the effect that only the oldest living Venture could designate who was the Sovereign. How could be Dean be the oldest living Venture? Jonas Sr. is dead and both Rusty and Jonas Jr. would seem to qualify as the oldest unless from a genetic standpoint Dean is the oldest because he is Jonas Sr.'s clone
Will Dean turn out better than Jonas Sr.? It's hard to say at this point. Jonas was a pretty bad father but, He did have his good points: Successful super - scientist, business tycoon, all evidence points to him not being a bigot. The 60s version of Team Venture had Blacks, Asians, Jews, Bi-Sexuals (Is Col. Gentlemen Gay or was Ms. Quymn just a beard?) and half-fish men. However, Jonas also made Rusty kill a man with key, let the ActionMan wake Rusty up in the middle of the night, put an empty gun against Rusty's head, pull the trigger and say "Not tonight Rusty, Not tonight." and locked a bunch of nerve gas poisoned orphans in the Venture bomb shelter for twenty years. Dean seems to have a great deal of compassion but, he is terrified of everything.
I think Jackson and Doc have placed a few clues out there as to Dean's true status. The most recent one being that only Dean could christen Bowie as the true Sovereign . They never showed us the GCI charter, but ,one would think that it said something to the effect that only the oldest living Venture could designate who was the Sovereign. How could be Dean be the oldest living Venture? Jonas Sr. is dead and both Rusty and Jonas Jr. would seem to qualify as the oldest unless from a genetic standpoint Dean is the oldest because he is Jonas Sr.'s clone
- by cpc65
- (unregistered id: C1880968BC)
Yeah. Apparently Dr. O decided to wipe her mind after "Powerless in the Face of Death" instead of explaining to her the boys were clones, so he must have also removed her memories of them dying as well. At one of the cons, some guy asked Doc and JP if she knew they were clones, and they would only answer by asking him what he thought. His guess was that she knew (which we now know was not so), and they were like, "So she knows they're clones. Where's the problem with that?"
My own thoughts on this is that I can't help but feel the Master has his own agenda here, and might be manipulating things to his (or some higher power's) advantage, and he may not be quite the benevolent and guiding beacon he would appear to be.
It would not surprise me to learn he had some involvement with Dr. O's wife leaving him for The Outrider. Now, for some reason, he wants Triana to become a sorceress. He made the closet door open so that she would enter and he could pull his “I'm loser adult Dean†trick to help convince her she had no future there, for get her and to move in with her mom, who happened to leave Dr. O years ago. Hmmmm.
My own thoughts on this is that I can't help but feel the Master has his own agenda here, and might be manipulating things to his (or some higher power's) advantage, and he may not be quite the benevolent and guiding beacon he would appear to be.
It would not surprise me to learn he had some involvement with Dr. O's wife leaving him for The Outrider. Now, for some reason, he wants Triana to become a sorceress. He made the closet door open so that she would enter and he could pull his “I'm loser adult Dean†trick to help convince her she had no future there, for get her and to move in with her mom, who happened to leave Dr. O years ago. Hmmmm.
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