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Welcome back to Malice! Home of many a super villain and also a wonderful potluck every second Thursday. I probably made up that last part. Anyway, here's your weekly discussion thread where you can talk about this week's episode . You guys no doubt know the drill by now, spoilers in the comments, episode is on at midnight easter and pacific, rate the episode on the capsule page, enjoy the show!

Update (11/9 6:55pm) - The episode is up on Adult Swim Video now. Enjoy!
  • by lanquin
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The Monarch reminded me of poor Mr. Mostly Mitten.
RIP, poor guy was killed by 21's ass.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:06am
  • by Agent No
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anyone else having audio drop off?
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:10am
  • by lanquin
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Are you watching the HD feed? I've heard Adult Swim often gets the HD feed messed up, try seeing if the standard channel is doing the same if you haven't tried that.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:13am
  • by Agent No
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yeah its the HD feed.....thanks Adult Swim.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:15am
Yeah, HD feed having weird audio issues for me too. The side channels keep dropping out randomly. :( Still watchable, but annoying.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:16am
  • by Mr. Monday
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Is it just coincidence 21's operation is called "Eye for Eye"? Exodus 21:24 is the famous "eye for eye" line from the Bible.
Exodus 21:24 (21 & 24). Hooray allusions! :D
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:12am
  • by Hardy
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I believe he said it was called "Eye for an I"
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Nov. 9, 2009, 5:18pm
  • by Mr. Monday
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Okay yeah, one of the various names for his operation is "Eye for An I," but the verse can still either be "eye for eye" or "eye for an eye," so it still pertains to Exodus.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 7:30am
  • by Kub
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thats awesome
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Nov. 10, 2009, 10:54pm
  • by lanquin
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Wow, this episode was very character driven and kinda depressing for the characters in it. I still enjoyed it though, but I can imagine many not liking it.
OH WHAT WOULD GIANT BOY DETECTIVE DO!
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:29am
  • by RetroWarbird
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Strange episode.

This definitely should've been our 2nd episode this season, since it doesn't peak quite as highly as the last two have, but I still enjoyed it. The usually fun dialogue. Dr. Mrs. The Monarch in her underwear the entire time. Henchmen talking about how 21 is like # 1, but keeps the name 21. Still, it was pretty anticlimactic, even while being funny.

24's ghost or possibly still being alive, huh? Nice.

I half-expect 24 to either be faking his death and a member of the Sphinx conspiracy, or else in a surprise twist, his ghost is trying to inform Sphinx when he meets the next person on the checklist - Brock.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:31am
  • by Agent No
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perhaps you had to be high, since apparently these are now "stoner series" shows according to adult swim.

but yeah gotta agree. Just felt like it kept building to something but never quite got there. I mean the Ghost of 24 thing was worth a "wait rewind that...." but still it was classic in a lot of ways but strange for the most part.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:36am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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I don't get the whole 'stoner series' thing either. But did you see the viewer bump about rerunning VB episodes during the week? That would be awesome!
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:49am
  • by the Venturer
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Are you kidding?! Adult Swim is made for stoners! At least, that's always been my unofficial opinion. Using the Showtime inbetweens and calling it the Stoner Series is just them owning up to that fact, if you ask me.

This episode was another character-driven masterpiece. I love the Monarch in this episode! His heart to heart with 21 was really cool stuff. I like getting into his head in that way. Also, when he told the Moppets off, I laughed my ass off. Doc did good on this one!
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:57am
  • by Hobo
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The "stoner series" thing was a parody of AMC's "Original series" bump. They likely did it because the season finale of Mad Men was on tonight
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:58am
  • by the Vunturer
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AMC! Not Showtime. Whoops.

But they've been doing it all week. Could still be because of Mad Men, though.....
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:03am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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I think it's one of those faux prestige things, like the 'finer things' stuff in the Adult Swim Shop.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:06am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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They've been doing it for a lot of their shows the last few weeks. This is the first time for VB though. What I didn't get was the reference.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:05am
  • by LikeATimeBomb
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it's a reference to the similar bumpers HBO, Showtime and AMC put before their shows. Class the place up a bit, ya' know.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:57am
  • by LikeATimeBomb
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oop, but Vunturer basically told you all that already. heh.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:58am
  • by MisterMostlyMittens
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Even if it is a joke I don't like it being tagged onto venture. This show is about as opposite from stoner as you can get. it's just so damned...COMPLICATED and subtle
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Nov. 9, 2009, 1:40pm
  • by Agent No
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Yeah I got the reference they were making to the AMC, HBO, Showtime thing, but I think they could come up with something better than "Stoner Series"
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Nov. 9, 2009, 4:49pm
  • by Joe
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I also don't care for "stoner series" being tagged for VB.
I mean, I get it, it's joke. Very funny. I mean, stupid.

But it's crap like Adam Sandler movies that deserve to tagged like that.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:36am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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I think you guys are taking the "stoner series" joke too seriously. Nothing on AS is meant to be taken seriously really. At the risk of sounding like a "bit of a dick" again I've gotta say that the apparent pretension of some Venture fans is quite off-putting. These comments are kind of like saying VB is "above" stoner comedy or that stoners aren't capable of grasping the subtleties of the humour in the show. Just letting you know you come off sounding a bit like squares and it reminds me of the people who bitch about certain jokes or plot turns as if they are not in-line with the spirit of the show. These people need to write and produce their own shows if they have such a problem with the way Doc and Jackson choose to treat or mistreat their own characters.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 11:40pm
  • by Chris98vf
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Dick... ;)
Well said, this is a show for many people, stoners to scholars to sound more like a douche than a dick.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 3:32am
  • by Agent No
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There's a difference from being elitist and not wanting associating with something one deems "beneath them" and lumping everyone that supports something into one description.

It'd be like reports of the box office sales for the Michael Jackson doc being described as "Pedophiles come out in full force at the theaters this weekend.." or everyone that goes to a Dave Mathews concert concert being greeted with "Welcome Date Rapists!"
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Nov. 11, 2009, 3:26pm
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Haha! Okay, that was pretty funny (and I couldn't agree more when it comes to DMB) but are you seriously lumping stoners in with pedophiles and rapists? That's just retarded. It also doesn't affect the show in any way - its clearly just adult swim's not-so-subtle way of giving a shout out to their main demographic while simultaneously making fun of them AND satirizing AMC/HBO/Showtime/etc. and their self-important pretentious bumpers. Its really pretty hilarious when you actually take the time to think about it.
Oh and being an elitist is EXACTLY "not wanting association with something one deems beneath them".
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Nov. 11, 2009, 7:42pm
  • by Agent No
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Despite the "and" between I didn't mean any difference between elitist and "not wanting association". I mean....clearly.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 11:45pm
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Then what did you mean? You started the sentence with "there's a difference..." so what difference were you talking about?
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Nov. 12, 2009, 12:14am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Ohhhh, nevermind - I get it now. It took some (Giantboy) detective work to decode taht first sentence but now I understand.
It still doesn't fly with me though. Adult Swim isn't calling you a stoner, they're just making a joke. Once again - this is a comedy show and its a cartoon. Lets not take anything too seriously now...
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Nov. 12, 2009, 12:17am
  • by Agent No
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THEN WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH?

I didn't get why everyone was calling you a dick before but you fuckin talk down to everyone who doesn't feel the same as you.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 12:26am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Man, some of you people are sensitive! =) Call me a dick all you want! I don't talk down to anyone. We are here to discuss our differing opinions and I wasn't informed that we had to watch what we said and go out of our way to be sensitive to other poster's fragility. Again, my main point is that a bunch of people are bitching about something that actually has nothing to do with the show itself and coming off sounding like a bunch of conservative oldsters.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 12:58am
  • by Agent No
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if you honestly read through your posts and don't believe you are talking down to people then you're also an asshole.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 1:08am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Hahaha! Give me an example. All I'm doing is presenting my opinion and engaging in spirited debate concerning the opinions of others. You're the one calling people names. =) seriously, don't be so sensitive.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 1:15am
  • by Agent No
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"but are you seriously lumping stoners in with pedophiles and rapists? That's just retarded"

" Its really pretty hilarious when you actually take the time to think about it. "

"I've gotta say that the apparent pretension of some Venture fans is quite off-putting"

I just think it says a lot that this site is full of differing opinion but I've only seen you get called out for being a dick. I've been disagreed with tons here, but you're the only one that talks to me like an arrogant prick. I don't care if you don't agree, and its why people come here. You just can't do it without being a condescending prick it seems.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 1:39am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Okay, this is gonna be my last post on this thread since it's getting WAY too skinny. I just really need to address your points because in none of these moments am I "talking down" to anyone. Lumping people who enjoy smoking weed with criminals the likes of pedophiles and rapists IS retarded. No matter what your stance on drugs is, its just not even close; It IS really hilarious when you think about it! I could see how this sounded mean but I really wasn;t aiming it at you (or anyone in particular). My knee-jerk reaction to the Stoner Series thing was also along the lines of "that's kinda lame". It wasn't until the second time around that I actually GOT it. My observation of the pretentious attitude of some fans also was not aimed at anyone in particular - just the people who somehow think they could do better than Doc and Jackson. You, in my estimation, are not one of these people.
So there you have it, I am sorry if I am confident in my opinions and that comes off as dick-ish (although there was only one person that said that and it was preceded by "bit of a") and I am sorry that you seem so sensitive. At the end of the day I guess I just can;t abide squares. =)
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Nov. 12, 2009, 1:53am
  • by ike
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just wanted to make it skinnier
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Nov. 12, 2009, 3:43am
  • by cpc65
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Rent a room you two. Jeez!
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Nov. 13, 2009, 1:21am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Just some food for thought - here is a list of "taboo" subject matter that Jackson and Doc have mined for comedy gold over the past 3+ seasons of VB:

child molestation, child death (including suicide and murder), torturing prostitutes, fetishism, bestiality, drug abuse, chronic masturbation, kidnapping, homophobia, prison rape, organ harvesting, dog fighting, mental retardation, infidelity and more.

and you guys are offended that they are associating the show with... stoners!!!? *gasp* heaven forbid. that is stopping pretty low ;)

Jokes, people. Comedy show.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 1:43am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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Wow. I didn't think it'd get that big. All I wanted to know was what it was a reference to.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 8:49am
  • by Jory
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Huh, that was really something. I was fascinated by the way the episode's action potential fizzled out before anything explosive could happen. It became basically just sets of characters having a series of "heart-to-hearts". Really good stuff.

And that ending was pretty slick. We'll see...
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:32am
  • by J
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Holy effing sweet. What an ending.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:34am
  • by cpc65
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Wow! I didn't catch it the first time, but that was NOT 21 who checked off The Ventures on the suspects list on the wall. 21 came through the door a second later and didn't see whoever it was. Could they be hiding in the top bunk that had the cover down, or maybe went through a secret door, or can possibly turn invisible?
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Nov. 10, 2009, 4:55am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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That was suprisingly sweet, and I liked it. It sort of reminds me of Tears Of A Sea Cow minus Dermott. I preferred 21's second name for the plan, Operation Rising Dragon or something like that. The list was pretty good, liked that. I can relate to Gary, minus the whole abducted by guys in butterfly suits thing. Also, glad to see the Monarch's finally put his foot down with the moppets.

Oh, and way to go Pvt. Schwa!!! What an honor.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 6:46am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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One more thing- I've been trying to remember where else I've seen that robot whose logic Hatred overloaded with the chicken fingers question ever since I saw him explode, and I think I've got it. It's the same face as the paperboy in Home Is Where The Hate Is, possibly even the same robot with a change of clothes.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:36am
  • by cpc65
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It's know as pulling a Kirk. As in Capt. Kirk. They had a several episodes where he defeated androids or some super computer by talking nonsense to them or using a logic loop and messin' with their minds causing them to go haywire and / or short out.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:35am
  • by Steve
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I like how the Monarch got the Moppets to cower, but I wish he'd been a little more evil with his description of what he'd do to them. After all, he's the guy who killed one of his own henchmen, replaced his blood with acid, threw his body in a shark tank, and tossed in a giant hairdryer (from Trial of the Monarch, season 1). I would have loved to have heard him going on and on about how brutal he'd be while cutting them up and feeding their parts to starving dogs. The Monarch has a reputation to uphold, after all.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:03am
  • by Tess
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Doing something that bad might make Dr. Girlfriend mad.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:32am
  • by Big Jim
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Anyone else notice in the scene where 21 is talking to the skull of 24 that each time 21 said something to the skull we heard a weird shrill chime as a response to his comment. Wonder if this means something crazy and supernatural is happening. Or if its just something in 21's head?
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:12am
  • by Agent No
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After watching again I have a theory that I'll leave out there. Remember in the season premiere when the OSI guys are chasing the invisible man down? 21 is not crazy, SOMEONE is communicating with him and taking out revenge using stolen or created tech. My guess is Phantom Limb, and he is also the one that detonated the explosion and is the reason we see the Sovereign hiding in a later episode.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 1:06pm
  • by tsox
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Oh man, it would be so awesome to find out there's more to that invisible man thing.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 1:42pm
  • by Ron Bonham
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They showed them so it would seem to follow that that was someone of importance, no?
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:39pm
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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I'm still a bit skeptical. He seemed to be more of a misdirection than anything else. He'll probably come up again but not in as important of a role as is being speculated.

As for the chime, I think it's just a musical representation of 21's insanity. He's definitely dangerous now, but still unfocused. I can see him playing a big part in the end of this half of the season.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:29am
  • by Joe
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I'm tellin y'all, the Moppets being the one's who pulled the trigger on 24, it's just too easy, too predictable!

If it turns out they're the one's that did it, I'm going to stay right here until my archenemy comes home and kills me!
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:38am
  • by Xoinx
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The Moppets? It's the Monarch who killed 24, when he planted the timebomb on HELPER.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:32pm
  • by cpc65
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Yeah, but he didn't set it off. He was on the ground all dizzy when the bomb went off. Saying The Monarch killed 24 is like saying Chevy killed someone because they built the car the person was driving when it got hit by a train. The Moppets were the only ones not seen outside at the battle. And the remote detonator was last seen on Dr. Mrs. The Monarch's throne when she ran outside.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 2:26am
  • by LikeATimeBomb
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We all killed him, Gary.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 3:10am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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yes. yes we did. well said! I don't think of this as a real mystery. Of course it may pop up again as the season progresses but they kind of wrapped up most of what they needed to.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 1:57am
  • by Agent No
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I don't think it will be THAT invisible man necessarily. Rather someone using the "tech" he used or who has similarly gone through whatever "they (OSI) did to him".

As for my Limb theory, I think it makes sense why he'd target The Ventures or at least support/encourage 21 to do that. Limb knows the Guild Laws (like Hatred) and figured if 21 went through with it Monarch would become hunted by The Guild too. As for Brock being #2, maybe hoping to convince Samson to join him to fight Monarch & The Sovereign, since Limb & Brock share a sort of respect for each other as foes.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 5:42am
  • by Tess
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Invisible man ran into a wall because he can't see. Light can't hit invisible eyes, my friend. It just can't.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:33am
  • by Hardy
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That is so right that it just blew my mind into a Fry Hole.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 4:52pm
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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Who says he's the one who's invisible? Could be the science equivalent of Orpheus's Cloak of Concealment.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 5:44pm
  • by MisterMostlyMittens
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Dr Girlfriend looks kinda cute in her pink underroos. although her anatomy was all over the place. I blame the animation directors.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 1:37pm
  • by Veggietray
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This was a compelling episode, and yet the only time I actually LAUGHED was when the henchmen were doing the '21 dart salute' and 21 got nailed in the ass by falling darts. Where has the humor gone?
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:05pm
  • by Hardy
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The humor is all still there....just tongue in cheek.

21 rolling around the boys room acting like his fingers are a gun
Dean's erection
moppets being fed under the table
Sgt. Hatred reading Dean's books and crying out "What would Giant Boy Detective Do?!"
Sgt. Hatred confusing the robot with nonsense
21's names for his plan
21 talking to a skull
21 assuming the water torture would quickly drive someone insane
Sgt. Hatred's comment about Rusty wearing briefs
The Monarch calling Dr. Girlfriend to confirm she knew he hung up on her and then hanging up on her again (priceless)
etc. etc. etc.

There was a lot of good.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 8:54pm
  • by Jory
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It was early in the episode, but I was particularly impressed with "A FUCKING PLESIOSAUR."
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:44pm
  • by Hardy
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HA! Yeah. I loved that. I was obsessed with dinosaurs when I was a child, so I knew immediately what a plesiosaur was.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:47pm
  • by Tess
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Oh, man, Sgt. Hatred turing screwed that robot! That was so great!
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:35am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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Yes! All these moments were great! I am finding this season WAY funnier than last season thus far. The opening debate regarding Nessie vs. Champ was by far the best scene (I miss those old season 1 debates i.e. are Smurfs mammals? or Lizzy Borden vs. Anne Frank).
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Nov. 10, 2009, 11:49pm
  • by clayton
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Yet another great episode this season:
24 possibly alive in some form
the monarch laying down the law for the moppets
seeing normal 21 transform into "psycho killer" 21

But did anyone else feel that Dr.venture and Dr.girlfriend were flirting with each other when they were at the observatory scene?
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:18pm
  • by cpc65
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I thought that at first too, but I think she was posing for her magazine spread while she was talking to Doc.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:40am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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I think she'd already posed at that point. It's not really flirting to me but one of those 'We're not so different, you and I ..." things.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:43am
  • by Jory
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There was no magazine spread, she was just going to meet Dr. Venture to talk about the boys being missing and didn't want the Monarch to be involved. it was a cover story.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 5:54am
  • by Jory Again
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Oh, wait... there it was, in the closing scene, prominently featured in 24's hands. I guess it really DID happen, but probably the next day, when the Monarch's shoot was scheduled. The timeframe doesn't make any sense no matter which way you look at it, but the magazine wouldn't magically be printed that same night anyway, so...

Great episode anyway.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 6:30am
  • by Tess
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THEY ARE TOTALLY INTO EACH OTHER! WHY CAN'T ANYBODY ELSE SEE IT! ARRG, YOU PEOPLE!!!
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:37am
  • by cpc65
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Doc is certainly into her, but she's made it clear in their last two meetings that she's not interested in him. I don't think that's suddenly changed, but she was probably being nicer to him this time because of what's happening and because Doc isn't trying to come on too strong this time.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 2:32am
  • by Hardy
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I agree. Dr. Girlfriend is not interested in Rusty....but was innocently flirting with him in that scene.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 3:04pm
  • by Red Menace
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While I am thrilled to have the show back and really enjoying the episodes, I am having more and more of a problem with the animation. They seem to have acquired these overly round, disneyesque features at times IE Hunchback Deans' Smile, Allergy Monarch etc. Not bitching, I just prefer their old harder look.

Love 21 talking to the skull
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Nov. 9, 2009, 7:46pm
  • by JOK
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I completely agree. My biggest complaint is how different Brock's facial structure is now. He doesn't look nearly as badass anymore.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 8:16pm
  • by Jory
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You have a problem with the designs and the drawings, not the animation. Unless you're a fan of the much more static and tweened look of season one, it's hard to argue that the actual animation isn't better than ever.

That said, I can understand how the new designs wouldn't be to taste, but the characters are simply better- and more carefully- modeled and structured than ever before, particularly Brock, whose head design was completely flat and frankly pretty stupid-looking, in retrospect. In fact, Jackson has said that before Season 2 Brock didn't even have a real model and the construction was just made up to fit the layouts.

The show's style is still extremely "hard" and linear where it counts, but the balance between rounded and straight lines is much more controlled, now. The compositions, layouts, and character construction are stronger than ever; while still retaining a pretty unique look, the inking and design are closer than ever to the Alex Toth projects which are arguably the series' main inspiration-- with animation, color design, and production quality worlds beyond anything those shows could have ever hoped for.

Not trying to bicker or devalue your opinion, though. It's just that I feel that the show looks better every episode, and for pretty objective reasons. The artists on this show impress the hell out of me.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:42pm
  • by Chris98vf
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I completely agree. Not only all that was said above but over time the budgets get bigger and they can spend more than in season 1,2, ect...
Also, they did say the characters are aging now and that can be seen in growth of character and such and more specifically the boys who are physically growing past age 16.
This only being season 4 and the artwork to improve this much is great. Look back at season 1 of any of your favorite cartoons, the art was nowhere near season 5 or where ever. Look at the Simpsons or Family Guy to name a few well known ones.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:49pm
  • by Chris98vf
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Forgot to mention, I love it that the henchmen are starting to look like someone other than 24. Look at the bar scene with 86 & 87, two completely new characters!
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:55pm
  • by jesuskilledmason
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I think the best art in any episode is the brisby episode in season 1. It has a very "hard" style but looks kinda static and fake in some parts. The molotov fight is bad ass though and they havn't had a scene that looks that cool in season 3 or 4
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Nov. 10, 2009, 1:32pm
  • by Jory
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It sure is classic material, and I think it is definitely a highlight of those early episodes. They were at least able to employ the series' then much-more-extremely-limited style to humorous effect in that scene, with Molotov's high kicks, etc., but I never felt like the scene was very exciting because of how obviously jokey it is. I also wish that episode didn't inexplicably look terrible on the DVD.

The show has obviously changed a lot since then and its stance on action vs. comedy has clearly dissolved a bit, but personally I think the most exciting action scenes they've ever done are the finale of Showdown at Cremation Creek, the chase with Herr Trigger, and the whole SWAT invasion/peoplemover chase from Perchance to Dean.

The show's direction has gradually become (to me) less about weird comic syncopation and instead focused on half-believable, anecdotal humor and carefully-crafted set-pieces, which is fairly awesome (especially since they're doing a better job of it now than in Season 3.) Still, I think part of what makes Return to Malice so interesting is the way it inverts the show's newer edge yet again by belying the obvious frenetic potential of the episode's rising action by making the second half of the episode become mostly depressing dialogue.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 4:23pm
Yeah, Malice is a very Doc Hammer type of episode in that way. He seems to tend towards more wordy types of episodes. Tag Sale, Your It was possibly the first episode to showcase this and while that episode does have an action sequence at the end it's 95% just characters talking to each other and it's one of the best episodes of the series. Victor Echo November is the same way, it's a ton of dialogue all building up to the shit hitting the fan.

And the great part about those two episodes is you, as a viewer, know the shit is going to hit the fan, you just have to wait to see when it will happen and what will come from it.

What makes Return to Malice so interesting is it's the same style, but nothing ever explodes at the end, and I think maybe that's why some people are a little disappointed in it. It all makes sense 100% and honestly I can't even see how it could ever end with an explosion. It's very much a characterization of the Monarch's life and the random shit they have to deal with when they're not actually arching.

That's another thing I love about the show, is how it's clearly about this group of ridiculous people; adventurers, super scientists, secret agents, super villains, and so on, but half the time it's just about their regular lives when they're not off doing the thing you'd expect them to be doing.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 6:46pm
  • by Jory
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Surely. Especially on second viewing, the episode's dialogue and character really pop. The dialogues between Dr.V and Hatred, Dr. V and Dr. G, Monarch and 24; even the surprisingly haunting rainfall scene outside Princess Tiny Feet's house are way more compelling (to me) than any Brock Samson killing spree--entertaining as those really, really are.

I think Brock's absence is a great opportunity for the show, and obviously one both Doc and Jackson are excited about. He may have landed a shitty gig, but bodyguarding was at least one that Brock was exceptionally good at. Without him, these larger-than-life characters seem just a little bit smaller but retain some of their absurdity, which makes the episode's moments of genuine pathos hit home quite well without seeming too canned.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 10:15pm
  • by Xoinx
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Weird: the best-drawn characters lately seem to be 21 and Hatred.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:44pm
  • by Tess
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When is this going to be on Adultswim.com?? I would really like to know! Having the episode cut out before the end on youtube is possible the worst thing that has ever happened to me!!
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Nov. 9, 2009, 8:56pm
  • by cpc65
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It was up on Monday.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 1:46am
  • by Red Menace
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Tess,
you can always try ninjavideo.net or greatstufftv.com. Adultswim has been a little slow on their site. Not understanding why you would put your best show on sunday at midnight is probably why I'm not an overpaid stooge at a network. Might be the same guys who slotted BSG
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Nov. 9, 2009, 9:13pm
  • by Johnny Israel
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I feel like eventually Gary could replace Hatred as the Venture body guard. Based on his training and that he generally gets along well with the boys.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 9:27pm
  • by Tess
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Are you kidding! It would be a DISASTER! He's just as much an idiot as he always was. xD
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:40am
  • by Johnny Israel
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I'm not saying it wouldn't be a disaster, but there's something about a good train wreck that keeps a hold of your attention, no matter how horrifying it is.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 9:30pm
  • by ChrisL232
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Here is the list of 21's suspects in order: The Ventures, Brock Samson, The Moppets,OSI, A Shape-shifting Nightshade, suicide, and happenstance.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 9:46pm
  • by Hardy
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You don't think he's fingering the Intangible Fancy with that 5th one do you?
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Nov. 9, 2009, 10:21pm
That sounds dirty.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 10:48pm
  • by Hardy
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Really?...........Grow up.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:48pm
  • by Don't be mean
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Aren't we all kids at heart, we are watching a cartoon :P
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:51pm
  • by Zenjin
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"Fingering the Intangible Fancy" totally sounds like something the Monarch would say to Dr. Girlfriend in bed. Say it in his creepy bedroom voice. Dirrty.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 2:59pm
  • by Jory
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"Do you have, uh..."

"Genitals? Not anymore."
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Nov. 10, 2009, 4:25pm
  • by Another Venturrrrrre
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But the Intangible Fancy doesn't have genitals! So there ya go, haha. Not dirty at all. Mind out of the gutter, man. ;-)
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:51am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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Yeah ... that doesn't necessarily disqualify it.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 5:39pm
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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I'd consider a shape-shifting nightshade more in the realm of the Krampus (or possibly Killinger?), sort of a demon.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:34am
  • by Creepy Crooner
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A shapeshifting Nightshade, in this situation, is most likely referring to the creature from D&D but could also be referring to the DC comics villain of the same name. I would think that since 21 made the list it would be a reference to something nerdy like that as opposed to another character in the Venture universe.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 11:26pm
  • by cpc65
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Agreed. He definately lets his imagination be influenced by comic books and D&D.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 6:01am
I felt like Sgt. Hatred kind of blossomed as a character in this one. Its the first time I've really genuinely enjoyed him.

My favorite exchange was the masturbation exchange between Hatred and Dr. Venture. The "needless shame" comment had me laughing loudly, as did the "if anyone knows about abducting teenage boys from their beds, its old Sgt. Hated."

Anyhow, nice that they took some time to make him a little mrore 3D.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 10:48pm
Yeah, I like how it's completely unapologetic and almost brutally honest. Obviously with his past of drinking and smoking and... young boys... he's a very "do it if it feels good" kinda guy, but he doesn't seem to have any shame or regrets really. It's a very entertaining change going from Brock to him. Not that I don't miss Brock, but they picked someone possibly even more extreme to replace him.
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Nov. 9, 2009, 10:53pm
  • by Tess
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It's interesting to see a FOIL exist for a character that isn't even in the show very often right now. (I see Hatred as a foil to brock, but interesting because they never interact.) It's like I am filling in the blanks and making up totally new episodes in my head: If Brock were here, this is what he would have done instead, etc.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:43am
  • by Chris98vf
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I have a feeling that there is a ghost of 24 and Gary will ask Dr. Orpheus to intervene somehow. After this somehow it will be known that Orpheus can take a soul and import it into a corporeal form (clone) and he will ask Dr. Venture again to make a clone of 24. What I can't figure out is how these 2 sciences/religions will become known to Gary as being possible. If you recall the 1st ep of season 2 Orpheus was looking for the boys souls to put back into their dead bodies as this is within his powers, unlike what 21 asked him to do at the begining of this season. Just my $0.02
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Nov. 9, 2009, 11:14pm
  • by Tess
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Why would Dr. Orpheus want to help 21? It makes no sense. Dr. Orpheus was just like, "Who is this loser? I'll just make up some shit until he goes away. He smells like warhammer."
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:44am
  • by Gilbert Smith
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Orpheus is a nice guy though. I think he was sincerely hearing him out and telling him the truth in Blood of the Father.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:58pm
  • by Chris98vf
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I think Orpheus would LOVE to help, he's always practicing his magic when ever he can. Plus he did say he has many clients such as Ronald Reagan... until his check bounced. Which goes to say, if 21 has the cash why not...
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Nov. 10, 2009, 11:30pm
  • by cpc65
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As I mentioned in one of my post for that episode, Dr. O needs a corpse to reunite with the soul. All 21 had was 24's finger.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 4:02am
  • by Chris98vf
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But a clone with no memories will be just as good if not more gooder.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 5:34am
  • by cpc65
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But the clones only grow at the same rate as a normal person. How old is / was 24? It will take that many years to grow a clone that's physically the same age. Otherwise Doc Venture could make new Hank and Dean clones and have them be 17 in no time at all. It's why Doc told 21 if he made a 24 clone it would be an infant.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 5:58am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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Yes, but we're ignoring an important fact- couldn't Orpheus put the soul into another body? There are more than enough guys getting killed and several of them are physically similiar to 24. I'm sure they could find a whole enough body for 24 to enter. And even if it wasn't someone who looks like him, it would still be the same personality.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 8:39am
  • by Gilbert Smith
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Maybe after the next failed raid on the Venture Compound, we could get a Venturestein with 24's soul/ghost possessing it?
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Nov. 11, 2009, 10:15am
  • by Agent No
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Or put 24 in a dog's body (LADY!) alla Hitler. Or possibly Groovy? Maybe that doctor has done this prior to Hitler.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 12:31am
  • by cpc65
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24 isn't dead anyway so none of that mattera anyway. It was probably him who checked off The Ventures on the suspects list and moved the skull right before 21 entered the room at the end.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 10:07pm
  • by Chris98vf
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That's not true, remember the Buddy System ep? The little boy that died and Doc was able to clone a full size 9 year, albeit gooey. There's no reason that with enough time in the oven it could be done.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 11:03pm
  • by Hardy
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Warhammer is the greatest game ever made. Do not dis it, Tess.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 3:06pm
anyone get the feeling that the brothers are becoming ok with being tied up. so...one day they are going to expect that from their partners.

2 ton 24 is getting ready for a full fledged hallucinated 'buddy' like in 6' under and dexter.

Hatred=do it til it feels good. well put, no shame.

"HAPPENSTANCE"?
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Nov. 10, 2009, 12:58am
  • by cpc65
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I tried to post a comment and it said I was flagged as a potential spammer? What?! I used "VB code" and too many URL's? What the hell is VB code? And I only had one URL. Will my post be put up once they determine I'm not a spambot, or will I have to type it out all over again? Eat at Joe's.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 1:20am
  • by Grethiwha
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That was a friggen awesome episode, it was great to see 21's full story, and the Sgt Hatred parts were very amusing. I liked this episode more than the last two, it's probably my favourite of the season so far.

Also, I couldn't help but notice Dr. Girlfriend's underwear looked kinda drawn-on over the original... I'm pretty sure she'll be naked in the DVD release. :p
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Nov. 10, 2009, 2:32am
  • by cpc65
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One can only hope. I'd also love to get a gander at the magazine spread she did as well.
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Nov. 10, 2009, 3:09am
  • by clayton
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Hell yeah!
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Nov. 10, 2009, 4:01am
  • by marceriksen
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I'm going to continue my prediction from season 3 (from Home is Where the Hate is) that Dr. Mrs. The Monarch is planning on making a come back and used / is using The Phantom Limb and Dr. Monarch to give her leverage so she can arch on her own (hence her being on the cover of the magazine at the end of this episode).
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Nov. 10, 2009, 8:13pm
  • by cpc65
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Some observations here, some of which I've already posted when I replied to other's comments. I tried posting this yesterday but got flagged as a potential spammer. Is the OSI running this site?
*Sgt. Hatred making the android guard short out by talking crazy nonsense stuff is known as pulling a Kirk. As in Captain Kirk.
The mirror phone thing in the Monarch's house reminded me of the scene from “The Year Without a Santa Claus” where Heat Miser and Snow Miser were talking over the phone to one another. They even had the fancy looking phones.
* I really liked the scene near the end where Doc Venture and Dr. Mrs. The Monarch are talking outside the observatory (that shoots lasers), and it starts raining. I agree that she may not be actually flirting with him. She perhaps is just being nice to him to smooth things over because of the boys being kidnapped and all. She was certainly being friendlier to him than the last two times they talked, though that may also be because Doc isn’t trying to come on too strong to her this time around. I love the way she made those little poses while talking and how she playfully reached out to feel the raindrops as Doc was calling Hank on the two-way. What a great animation touch! And I totally agree with RetroWarbird. Any episode with her mostly in her pink bra and panties is at the tops of my list. I don’t usually get the hots for cartoon women, except for a few hentai babes, but she would definitely be in my top five list of sexiest animated honeys.
* I think there was some old b&w horror movie where this guy would talk to a skull and would hear it talking back to him, telling him what to do, or who to kill. This was represented onscreen by a weird chime like noise such as we heard here with 21. I'm still not convinced that's 24's skull though.
*When we saw the Monarch's bloated face, for some reason Garry Shandling came to mind. Probably just me. Sorry Garry!
See this photo at http://us.imdb.com/media/rm687508992/nm0788009
*Scorpio “The King of Sting” made the cover of Modern Enemy Monthly on the issue 21 is reading in the tree fort. This was most likely from before he got pummeled by Capt. Sunshine. Check out the ad on the back cover. You can apparently buy and Astro Ray Gun made by none other than Astro Base Go! If they printed for real an actual issue of this mag for purchase, specifically the one with Dr. Mrs. The Monarch in it, would anyone else buy a copy? They could even have adds for dart guns, torture devices, defensive traps for your lair and such. It would be great!
*Hey Pvt. Schwa, if you’re reading this, how did your rehearsal for Oklahoma go with Princess Tinyfeet? You dawg!

“Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!”
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Nov. 11, 2009, 1:27am
  • by cpc65
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Oh yeah. One more thing, as if my post above wasn't long enough. Possible minor continuity error. In this episode, the door to the right of The Monarch's bed (from our perspective) is the bathroom. I’m fairly certain that was the door to the hallway in “Home is Where the Hate is”. When The Monarch grudgingly gave permission for the Moppets to sleep in the house instead of the cocoon, Dr. Mrs. The Monarch called to them and they came in through that same door carrying their cat bed thing.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 1:44am
  • by Grethiwha
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I noticed the Astro Ray Gun, they put it on the astrobasego website after shirt club ended last season for anybody to print out:
http://www.astrobasego.com/images/raygun.jpg
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Nov. 11, 2009, 3:06am
  • by cpc65
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Speaking of Shirt Club, I guess they're not doing that or another such type of promotion this season?
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Nov. 11, 2009, 4:11am
  • by Phil
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What, didn't you sign up for this season's Action Figure Club!?
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Nov. 11, 2009, 5:59pm
  • by cpc65
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Darn it! And I wanted the one of 21 wearing Sgt. Hatred's Venture Industries uniform too. Aaawww!
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Nov. 11, 2009, 10:15pm
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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Seriously, that would be so awesome. I'd love to get a Captain Sunshine or Hunter with removable tits.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 10:46pm
  • by chacmool
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the monarch complains about his nose before eating the salad... can be explained away that he's eaten it before. but......
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Nov. 11, 2009, 9:14am
  • by Heat Death
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I assumed the nose pimple/ allergic reaction were two separate things. The Monarch's complaining about his nose right before he goes into the bathroom was probably just a red herring for the viewers.

On a completely unrelated subject, is anyone else in awe with the direction that Jackson, et. al have taken the show this season? The removal of the boys' "safety net" and their sudden, unplanned entrance into adulthood magnifies the themes that have been building since the first time we saw them die. The idea of stagnation (whether from apathy, ineptitude, or forced) that became the hallmark of VB has been subsumed by something awesome.

I'm glad I've been watching since the pilot, and I have no regrets about the end. FORWARD THE FUTURE!
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Nov. 11, 2009, 5:17pm
  • by Jory
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Yup. I've said it elsewhere, but the direction the show has taken this season has been really riveting, especially since (no offense to J&D) the show has been much more tightly written, edited, and directed this season than the (personally) slightly lackluster season 3. Bring it on!
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Nov. 11, 2009, 9:29pm
  • by Jory Again
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Also, I think it's fascinating that the old style of the show didn't even become stale before J&D started mixing it up so profoundly. It's courageous of them.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 9:31pm
  • by Red Menace
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coming up
405 The Revenge Society 11/15/09
The Guild of Calamitous Intent comes under attack from an old foe with a new name, Revenge. Revenge’s hunt for the all-powerful Orb brings the entire Guild to the front door of the Venture Compound, where they must face the combined might of Sgt. Hatred and Hank Venture.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 7:01pm
  • by Jory
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No way. Sounds awesome.
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Nov. 11, 2009, 9:28pm
  • by mogo
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Previous comments were right, this is epic. and this is about to get eppicer if that were a word. It's phantom limb vs the guild vs the ventures and everyone wants the ORB. but how did you learn about this stranger?
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Nov. 12, 2009, 12:27am
  • by Chris98vf
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The correct term is more gooder
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Nov. 12, 2009, 3:47am
  • by cgeye
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Ol' Transparent Hands is BACK.
*sigh*
I missed him so....
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Nov. 11, 2009, 10:28pm
  • by Agent No
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Is the preview clip up yet? I just missed it on A.S. last night.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 12:27am
  • by Agent No
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never mind just saw it, visible council too!
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Nov. 12, 2009, 4:42am
  • by mogo
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where did you see it? and I can't belive it. How could one man worry an entire army of super villans? I know the orbs powerful but I think the fact it;s called the revenge society means that phantom limb/revenge won't be alone. and hank and hatred won't do dick. I'm sorry but hank's just starting his awesome training and hatred's comicly inept. they won't do dick against the guild. The guild and the society will but heads and the ventures are just in the middle.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 5:56am
  • by Agent No
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Its been airing during commercial breaks on Adult Swim.

It looks as though Limb and his "team" take down the council somehow.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 6:26am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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Or at least Councilman #3.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 11:21pm
tanking down the guild might be easier than you think:

A new bio of the Thin White Duke is going to include discussion of the occult's role in Bowie's post-Young American meltdown. From Starpulse:

In the book, Spitz writes, "While planning the follow-up to "Young Americans" (album), Bowie would sit in the house with a pile of high-quality cocaine atop the glass coffee table, a sketch pad and a stack of books. Psychic Self Defense was his favorite. Its author describes the book as a 'safeguard for protecting yourself against paranormal malevolence.' Using this and more arcane books on witchcraft, white magic and its malevolent counterpart, black magic, as rough guides to his own rapidly fragmenting psyche, Bowie began drawing protective pentagrams on every surface."

Bowie told the author, "I'd stay up for weeks. Even people like Keith Richards were floored by it. And there were pieces of me all over the floor. I paid with the worst manic depression of my life. My psyche went through the roof, it just fractured into pieces. I was hallucinating 24 hours a day."

Spitz adds, "Increasingly Bowie was convinced there were witches after his semen. They were intent on using it to make a child to sacrifice to the devil, essentially the plot to Roman Polanski's 1968 supernatural classic Rosemary's Baby."

A friend hooked Bowie up with New York-based white witch Walli Elmlark.

The author adds, "Elmlark quickly and successfully exorcised the pool. Angie (Bowie), who was living there at the time, noted that it started to bubble and smoke, and that it only rained outside David's window while the rest of the L.A. sky was clear. Elmlark wrote a series of spells and incantations out for Bowie as he continued to wrestle with the forces of darkness."
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Nov. 12, 2009, 6:15pm
  • by roscoe
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There seems to be a lot of distain for this episode, but To my mind, and in my opinion, this was the best episode of the season, so far.
I loved the "core Venture" style writing, getting back hard to the theme of failure, heavy with the Monarch, and people facing up to their own inadequecies.
Hatered spying on Tinyfeet's S&M party, Dr.Mrs. M once again acknowledging that she is not where she wanted to be in life (personally I think she settled for duo-ship, since she couldn't hack it as a villian....Yes, I know, FICTION.) If only we could get Brock back into the mix, I would be a really happy camper. ...and of corse, as always with me, Triana.
I've been musing over what role "Nikki" is going to play in the series. I'm thinking that Hank is going to fall for her, I just hope that she doesn't turn out to be evil (undoubtedly will) the series could do with more consistant female characters.
As for the final sequence, it's anybody's guess. But two things I would put money on:

-Henchman #1 (from now museum...) crossed the Ventures off the list,
-And we aren't going to get an answer in the next episode.

Just my opinion.
Here's hopin' we see Brock soon!
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Nov. 12, 2009, 9:37pm
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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Really? There seems to be a lot of positive things being said about the episode as far as I can tell.
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Nov. 12, 2009, 11:20pm
  • by cpc65
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That's a good guess on Henchman #1. I hadn't thought of that. It seems that Brock had mellowed out a but on the killing, so maybe he just let him go with a beating. I would deffinately now put him in the top 5 list of possibilities. But how did he duck out of sight so quickly when 21 came in the room?
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Nov. 13, 2009, 1:17am
  • by Marcus
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Who is Nikki?
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Nov. 13, 2009, 2:52am
  • by Chris98vf
  • (unregistered)
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The girl that was hanks' blind date, the one Dr. GF was talking to in the bathroom and confused as an Arch. Dr. GF then handed Nikki her business card and left.
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Nov. 13, 2009, 3:21am
  • by The Mysterious 'H'
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No, that's Kim. Nikki is a new character that hasn't premiered yet. More info here:
http://www.idolstartv.com/featured-articles/3255.html
  • 0
Nov. 13, 2009, 3:34am
  • by mogo
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I agree.
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Nov. 13, 2009, 5:52am
  • by Rob
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So I looked through the comments and didn't see any mention but there are so many I apologize but.....

Did anyone catch that 21 killed Mr. Mostly-Mittens by falling on him? 24 mentioned it in "I Know Why the Caged Bird Kills." Great Fan service there.
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Nov. 13, 2009, 6:07am
  • by Rob
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Blogging drunk is bad kids! It makes you miss the first comment. ;)

Still a great show with some of the smartest writers around.
  • 0
Nov. 13, 2009, 6:12am
Sorry I've been away, lost my internetz...

I only read the capsule, and not the discussion thread, so I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but since it is missing from the capsule, I figured it was worth mentioning.

D-19's "Dean Suit" is an homage to Silence of the Lambs, where Buffalo Bill REALLY wanted to be a woman and started skinning large women to make a woman suit.
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Nov. 15, 2009, 10:29pm
  • by Col. Aldus Valor
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See? I am really off, this belongs in the Perchance to Dean Discussion......
  • 0
Nov. 15, 2009, 10:30pm
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cpc65

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Cool beans! Maybe if you attend dressed only in your Hankbuck towel you'll win a prize?

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